Author Topic: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???  (Read 1359 times)

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Offline MamaiNorge

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not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« on: January 31, 2009, 14:12:01 pm »

Hi,

My LO has been a super good sleeper from day 1 (is now 7.5 w) and never needed help to go through several cycles, but the last couple of days, she wakes for ALL her naps: at least after the 10, 20 and 45 min marks.  I have been shh patting her and I could extent her sleep for at least 1,5h, so success!!!  But how long do you shh pat?  I have read on this forum that you keep shying and patting at least until she is in REM-sleep (so, that is for over 20 min).  But if a cycle only takes 45 min, don't you have to shh pat for the whole duration of the nap almost?   :-\
Anyway, I have done this for 25 min and witnessed the 10 and 20 min jolt.  After 25 min, I slightly stopped patting until my hand was just laying on her.  After 1 minute, I gently took away my hand.  Again 1 minute, I stopped shhh-ing and placed the bed cover over her, again super-gently.  1 min later, she experienced another jolt and opened her eyes again, so I restarted the whole thing.  After recommencing several times (+/- every 5 min) and 1h had passed (!!!), she finally got into REM-sleep.  So, I left her, thinking that would keep up for +/- 30 min until the next 45 min mark.  But no, after 8 min, she started slightly fussing again!  So, I started yet again!  In the meantime, I have left her, because 3hr since her last feed have gone by and I thought: "OK, now she can wake up."  I just heard her on the baby monitor fussing a little bit and she let out 1 cry, but now she back to sleep!!!   ::)
Should I wake her now?  After all my effort?  Although, I kept her so relaxed during her nap, I don't feel she had a good, deep nap...  What to do?
Sandy

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Offline lushlollie

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2009, 15:58:37 pm »
Hi MamaiNorge,

IMHO (and I'm no expert) you have 2 choices. You could either wake her for her 3hr feed and then keep the A time low key until her next nap (or she starts showing you she's tired). Or you coud leave her to sleep for as long as you feel she needs to prevent her becoming more OT later in the day and feed her when you wake her up (as long as this isn't longer than her feed cycle - 3hrs). You can then adjust the rest of your day accordingly.

I have tried both with my lo (13 weeks old) and have found that leaving her to sleep and adjusting her routine works better and results in a less cranky baby having a better nights sleep.

WRT the shh-patting, is she swaddled? This may help with the jolts. And have you tried stopping the shhing before you stop patting? Also from what I have read on this site, shorter naps could also suggest your lo is ready for a bit more A time.

Sorry it's nothing specific but HTH a little!
Lollie
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Offline charmie

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2009, 16:56:07 pm »
I would wake her up for feed and back to sleep.


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charm






Offline MamaiNorge

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2009, 18:25:19 pm »

What do you mean?  Immediately back to sleep, no A time?

Yes, she is swaddled, but she always wiggles her arms free.  She likes to sleep with her arms above her head (really with her arms up - see picture).  My DH calls it the I-give-myself-up position.   ;D

I have already tried increasing her A time and that makes her just more cranky.  It is not that she wakes up happy, like 'I am rested, please come and pick me up'.  She is not very cranky either for the first 10 minutes, but still...  She looks more 'not rested enough' than 'rested'.  She does have a short window between yawning and getting fussy, so I want to put her to bed before she starts yawning. 

BUT... we have my brother-in-law over and his wife for 10 days (we live in Norway, they in France), so try and tell 'uncle and auntie' to hand over the baby before she has even given the first sign of tiredness!!!   ::)  And every week we have someone else visiting: first it was my parents (although they didn't interfere with that and supported the idea - puts the classical parents vs. parents-in-law debate in a new perspective for me!   ;D), then my parents-in-law, now the brother-in-law, next godmother, then friends,...  The list never ends!  Anyway, they look at you like you are crazy!  Also, if you try to let a baby continue sleeping after she obviously has woken up, gets critical looks!  But that is another debate all together...

So, I was saying, putting to bed before she yawns.  We are trying to put her to bed also sooner at night, since she has a rough couple of days and maybe needs to catch up on some sleep.  Could it also be that we have been out and about a lot the last days, which causes her to eat at more irregular hours and sleep irregularly (you know: put her in the car, dozes off for 45 min, wakes up again at the doctors office, back in the car, dozes off again...).  I have noticed she does take to a new situation rather quick.  Could she have forgotten to put herself back to sleep, because it wasn't necessary the last days?

What I did this afternoon: I let her sleep for 1 hour more and then woke her up.  Then, for her second nap this afternoon, the getting into REM-sleep only took one interference, but she did wake again after 45 min.  This time I could let her doze on and off for half an hour longer, but then it was game over.  She also had wind, which made her wake up again.  I managed to stretch it to 2h40 between 2 feeds...  Better then 2h, but still a long way from what it used to be (4hr if you let her!)...   :-\

So, coming back to my original question: how long do you shh pat?  What is the trigger to stop?  When do you leave?  Tracy says: "the first day you might have to pat 20 min, the second 10 min and the third putting your hand on them be enough".  But how can see when it is enough?  Today she also looked asleep again (even in REM-sleep) and when I stop, she wakes again!
Sandy

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Offline ~Emma~

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2009, 18:53:43 pm »
With the sh/pat I think it depends on the individual baby.I had to try several techniques to make it work for us. For example I start by cradling him in my arms and sh-pat until he is dozy and then I bring him into the vertical position as this makes it easier to put him in the crib and means he wont become really awake when I pop him in the crib. The time I shush for is starting to reduce every time I do it and i've been shushing for nearly 4 weeks now!!! I think you just have to be patient and one day it will just start to work for you and your baby. Sometimes I can even manage to pop him in there awake and he does the job himself! Somedays are 20-30min sessions and other days it takes just 5, there is no textbook answer i'm afraid.  ;D Just keep trying with it and modify it to suit you and baby if you need to.

 When my LO has a short nap, usually due to OT I keep the next A time really low key and try to get him down asap so as not to build up any more overtiredness. But i always wake my LO up for feeds at the 3 hour mark (he is also 7.5 weeks).

As for the folks all coming to visit i can sympathise with that totally!  ;) Don't worry what people think about your baby whispering techniques, you know whats best for your baby.  I too have had critical looks and more from my friends and family and now i have to make myself forget about it otherwise it really gets to me.
If like me you are new to this just remember that some days will go wrong, its inevitable! If I had learned that weeks ago I would have saved myself alot of stress.  :)


Offline charmie

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2009, 10:33:36 am »
I was going to write something, but Brodiesmummy said it all  ;D ;D

Might just add that REM is not deep sleep, babies enter deep sleep approximately after 20mins.  Ideally you keep patting at least that long, then you stop shushing and keep patting, then you decrease patting, then you just keep a hand on her back etc etc so you're sure she's in the sleep.  If you stop too early and leave, and she wakes up you have to start allover again which is veeeery frustrating.  I also realise the shush/pat is hard work, so if after 45mins you are nowhere near sleep mode, take a break, bring her out of the crib, keep it really low key and try again in 15/30 mins.  If it take you really long to get her to sleep and it's almost feed time, wake her up, feed her, nappy change, wind-down and back to sleep.  You might think there's no a time, but A time includes feed time and nappy change too.


xxx
charm






Offline ~Emma~

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2009, 11:47:32 am »
Hahaha Charm...you taught me everything I know!!  ;D x


Offline MamaiNorge

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2009, 18:01:36 pm »

OK, be patient is the trick!  ZEN!   ;D  Sometimes a hard thing for me to be...  hum...  ;D
I must say, I have been shh-ing a lot shorter today.  Maybe because she is so relaxed today...  Let's see how it continues!   :D
Sandy

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Offline charmie

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 19:54:11 pm »
Keeping her relaxed sure helps.  That's why quiet a times are important.


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charm






Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2009, 22:51:53 pm »
Hi

Not sure if this helps...a rather long wittery post on shh patt written for another post... anyway, thought it might help...it is LONG!!!!

I started shh patt at 8 or 9 weeks when I discovered BW, thank GOD. Until then DS was a babe in arms and only slept on me, or by trickery. Don't go beating yourself up when you need to AP to get through tough times. Don't beat yourself up at all. 

So shh pat. It got my LO off my chest and into his crib pn the first go so I am a massive fan. I think for some babies the combination of shh and patt can be too much (the closer they got to 3 months I found).  This is what I did to get him off me and in that crib, and stay there:

 * make that crib nice and cosy: I stuffed a couple of hand towels rolled up down the sides so it was soft and snug against his body. When he was really tiny I also took off the top I was wearing (so it smelled like what comforted him) and popped it in there too (side or underneath. A muslin that's spent a few hours under my top, tucked in my bra also worked well - folded and tucked along where a pillow would be. Great for spitups.... Oh, and a wheattie or heatpack or hot water bottle to warm up the bed just a little helped me too. Or put the blanket on a warm radiator first. Anything that would make you feel cosier if you were them, IYKWIM?

 * find a rhythm that works for you both: the first time I tried shh patt it didn't work. I was shhhing like a banshee; loudly, too fast, too stressed to be relaxing and sounded panicky. Enter DH who (less stressed and tired) found a rhythm for us. My shhh sounds, to me, like water coming in over pebbles in the tide and back out again...so it's stronger in the middle and long. Then I got my pat rhythm too, I tried the tick tock tick tock (I'd used a heart beat rhythm previously and that worked well too). Very gentle pat on middle of upper back. I kept in my head what it was meant to simulate: womb noises, the wooshing of fluids and the tick tock of your heart. Your LO's used to that sound; comfort. You're recreating it. Not loud, not stressed, not panicked...just gentle and try to tune out if you know what I mean? Sounds unbelievably anal but over a count / beat of 8 (tick tock = 2), my shh lasted 6. Silence for 2 counts and then ssshing started again. The pat was constant. To keep calm, I tried to think back to the times I would pat my tummy gently (or rub) when DS was on the inside and had hick-ups. We had more success when I was in that mindset.

 * swaddle. I initially didn't for the first few weeks of his life as he fought his way out (monkey) and was scared of them. But it worked for us and while he fought initially, he didn't relax anywhere near as well without it in the first few weeks of his bed. Swaddle wasn't needed after he was 3 months (around there)

 * right then. shh patt  him while holding him over your shoulder or, if you can, in a cradle position (less noticeable when LO's laid down). Keep it going: if screaming, be a little louder so LO can hear (but not so it's loud and scary) and quieter when they quiet down. As soon as you feel that lovely little body going a little more limp and floppy get ready for your move...and keep patting... and shhing...do not stop....now move them into the sleeping position still in your arms...still patting, shhing, still your warmth. Now start moving into the crib / bed, still spspspspsp. lay down gently and keep your face close to theirs (oddly warm breath near his cheek would often resettle my LO when being moved), once you've laid down, keep spspspsps. Hard so you might need to lay on side to reach back or start patting on chest (I found back hard after a while so I started patting chest before I laid down and continued in crib), keep it going but start easing off the volume and the pressure of the pat, slowing both gently. I did this until he was in a deep sleep. And sometimes he'd wake, and the SP would begin again (while still in crib whenever I could). Sometimes I'd fall asleep SP'g. Gradually (but as quick as you feel you can) start doing less and less of the sp to get them to sleep: so aim to get them in their bed, comfortable and ready for sleep. Initially, wait with them until you know they're in the deep sleep. When I was desparate for DS to get a really good sleep, I'd stay with him so that if he stirred after 30 or 45 mins, I could get him back to sleep very quickly and with little effort (often just the gentle pressure of a hand on his chest could be enough). Investing time early on pays off; leave the room too early when they're just in a light sleep and you could be doing it all over again...

 *going down sleepy but awake: great to do this if you can. I couldn't initially. DH would put him in asleep, after a few mins of sleep in arms with SP (still SPg). I would put DS in as soon as I felt his head flop a little then get him to deep sleep in crib. Over the space of a week, I put him in the crib earlier and did less SP to get him to sleep. So...initially when his head flopped a little (just fallen asleep). Next time, just as head flops. Then just as body goes limp and relaxed but before the head flop... do you see what I mean. While in the bed, gradually do less SP to get them asleep. The shh pat is the means of you sneaking them into that bed without their noticing, IYKWIM

 * keep an eye on the road ahead: where you are heading - to be able to take your baby and, after a wind-down, lay them in their bed awake and leave them to put themself to sleep. It may seem madness, but it's where you want to get to. So everything you do should be a move towards independent sleep (there are times you can't. AP with rocking etc can be necessary when you both need rest). Over time (a couple of naps, a few days, a week - depends on babe) SP slows and eases off so it's your hand on chest with a little gentle pressure. And then nothing at all

 * cries whenever you lay him down: If you were in the cosiest place you can imagine, you'd be vocal when moved. You are warm, soft, smell like home and comfort and LO's world. Snuggled up with you is where they want to be more than anything so any move from this isn't really met with great joy. The aim is to get them so relaxed and focused on the sp that they don't really notice the move (helps if you're moving them somewhere warm!) and feel that you are still near (breath, warmth, pressure of patt initially). They don't know the bed is safe. But you do. Sounds obvious but in the frustrating sleep deprived hours I had to remind myself of that all the time to keep my sanity: babies are not rational.

My LO cried everytime put down for the first few days I think. And sometimes does now. If LO's distressed and upset, pick up and keep the sp going til they're relaxed again. And start the move again...frustrating, much? I tried to comfort in crib wherever possible, but sometimes it's not. Judge quickly the type of cry - a resettlable grizzle or an all out 'I need you' cry. I'd pick up if the latter and resettle with SP in arms; I'd try to resettle a grizzley cry in the crib but not always possible.

 * OT: I have a rule that we still stick to now. If OT and the usual thing (SP or GW) isn't working, then we AP to get DS to sleep by whatever means necesarry. I had 3 options I knew: pram (didn't always work for me), car (90% success here) and my snuggled against my chest (was 100% now 5%!  ). I'd pop him in the car first of all, check he was warm enough and drive. He woke if car stopped (rushhour was a 'mare), same with a pram. I would drive for hours if necessary around and around and around. Dual carriageways, ringroads, motorway...anything to get him asleep and see off the OT demons. The next nap we'd get back to that bed.

 * If bed isn't LO's favourite place, try the afternoon nap somewhere else that they like so they get a break of scene before nighttime. I did the pram for the afternoon nap. Slept better with fresh air, helped me get out and feel a little more human.

It's a horrifically really long post and I'm sorry. Just trying to give you everything I can think of to help you. Be patient, be calm, find your rhythm.

HTH

Charlotte

Offline ~Emma~

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 11:14:58 am »
Good tip from the pp on change of scenery for the catnap, gonna try that one myself!  :)

Just wanted to add that we got a white noise cd for some naps as Brodie was a nightmare, I was unsure at first as I didn't want it to be used all the time. I find it really helpful when I have missed the sleepy window and he can be difficult to settle, also really helpful when you're all shushed out!!!!  ;D

 Glad its going well for you at the mo. x


Offline MamaiNorge

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 14:10:33 pm »
Indeed, very long, but very helpful!!!   ;D

Today, I haven't been shh-ing much at all, so I hope we are making progress!  Or it is just coincidence...   :-\  I did change the wind down routine a little.  I noticed that she doesn't like it if I go an sit down with her.  It is a chair in the corner of her room and there nothing really interesting there.  So today I walked around her room with her  - calm and gently - and said 'good night' to each and everyone of her animals - in a soft voice!  She seems much more relaxed when she can look around a little...  When I put her in her crib: no protest!   :D  Tweeking, tweeking along the way...

Now coming back at the 45 min monster: can any of you tell me why it changes?  She slept literally like a baby for the first 7 weeks for hours in a row.  And all of a sudden, for every nap, she is awake at the 45 min mark and seems to be forgotten how to put herself back to sleep!  As I said before, in the morning she seems so awake that I have tried to increase her A time, but she still wakes up after 45 min.  For her first nap, she is still so active that I just let it be a 45 min nap, because she wakes up happy anyway.  But for the second nap, it is a different story.  Occasionally, it seems that she wakes up from wind in her tummy and if she cannot pass it, she keeps waking herself up.  But other times, there is nothing really wrong, doesn't seem too awake and wants to sleep, but cannot.  So, I ask myself, what has changed?
Sandy

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Offline charmie

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 16:19:16 pm »
Well they grow and as they grow they change.  Too often if you ask me  ;D  But as you said you just need to tweak along the way and find out what works for them.  What works today might not work tomorrow, and it will get a bit crazy until you find what works now...but you will always get there in the end...and then she'll change again  :P

Can you post your routine so we can try to tweak the 1st a time too.  45 mins is not restorative enough.  Your baby is too young for such short naps.  And she has shown you she can do longer naps.


xxx
charm


 






Offline MamaiNorge

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 13:55:57 pm »
Oeps, in another discussion, I just posted my recent updates on her naps:
Here an update of what I tried: I have increased A time mainly in the the morning, because she is so active and happy then. 
1st nap (early morning):
For her first nap she still only wants to go down for 45 min.  She just won't stay down longer.  But I guess that is acceptable since she just slept the whole night.  I have even tried with EAEAS in the morning given the fact that she is also very hungry then, but nothing more than 45 min.  If she comes out of this, I try to extent the next feed at least until 3 hours from the first E have passed or if possible from the second E.  So, our morning looks like EAS-AEAS or as I said as EAEAS-AEAS.
2ND nap (late morning):
45 min again!  She is just too awake to do longer, even with extra A before her feed!  She does get tired more faster for her second A.  She is also a very regular poo-er, and she is always struggling with her belly rumblings then until it is out...  Maybe that is also why... 
3rd nap (afternoon):
This nap I can manage to extent now very well.  I usually hear her fussing a bit after cycle 1, sometimes 1 cry and mostly she puts herself back to sleep.  Occasionally, I have to in and resettle her, but she is fine.  She sleeps for 2-4 cycles!  I let her now because she needs it.  I tried to wake her up from these, so she would sleep the 4Th nap also 1.5h at least, but that doesn't work...
4Th nap (late afternoon):
Is a short one again, before her evening routine with bath.

I put her to bed 0.5h earlier.

Tracy says 3 naps a day, each 1.5-2h, so we have 4 naps: 3 short ones, 1 superlong and an early evening.  Would that also be OK?
[/i]

But I guess not then...   :(

The last few days her routine looks like this:

E – 7.00
A –
S – 8.30

E – 9.30
A –
S – 10.30 - 10.45 depending on her cues

A - she likes to stay in her crib, just looking outside
E – 12.00
A –
S – 13.00 latest!

E – 16.00
A –
S – 17.30         

E – 18.30 - 19.00               
A – bath and evening routine                                 
E – 20.00 – cluster feeding
S – 20.20

She doesn't have a DF, because she just won't drink then.  I let her wake up on her own after bath, which is usually around 0.30!
Sandy

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Offline charmie

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Re: not the 45 min monster, but 5 min monster???
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 15:49:21 pm »
If you have another similar thread on another board we should definitely merge them.  No use doing copy and paste.  It only helps to get conflicting advice.  I'll go looking for it later...

In the meantime, congrats on the STTN.  But that doesn't mean she doesn't need a longer 1st nap.  When you said it lasts 45mins I was thinking she might need more a time.  But then I saw she had 1.5hrs and that's quite a lot for her age  :-\  On the other hand 45mins do indicate OT sometimes  :-\  In this case you'd need to decrease her a times and keep them really low key.

Also after a short nap such as 45mins, you need to keep the following a time short and sweet.

When you post your routine it would really help if you could write down how long the naps lasted.  Otherwise we can't calculate the following a time.

It's also almost time to stop cluster feeds, and you might want to introduce df then.  Cluster feeds are recommended until 8 weeks. 

Something else that jumps at me is that the bath is happening too late.  You normally aim for a 12hr day, so she should be asleep by 7, even earlier since her naps are not restorative.

Here's a link for you; http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64159.0


xxx
charm