Old timer needs help for desperate sister and nephew!!!!

[Poppy & Lily]

Hello ladies,

Some of you might remember me from when I used to post! well i am back for some good old BW advice from you wonderful ladies

My sister is having a hellish time at the moment with my nephews sleep so I thought you guys could help out.

He is 32 mths old and up to about 5 weeks ago he was a great sleeper his routine was

6.30-7am-Wake
12-2pm _ Nap
7-7.30pm-Bed
and slept through the night with the occasional waking in early evening but went back to sleep no probs.

NOW

he is having chronic NW's sometimes he is awake from 11pm-3am and then again at 5am!!! my sister has reached breaking point we have tried tweaking his routine by cutting back his nap to 1.5hrs then to 1hr with no effect.  I suggested that maybe he is ready to drop his nap but he falls asleep within 2 mins of putting him down for his nap so he's not fighting this
we've tried increasing his 'A' time before bed by putting him down later again with no effect!


Last night he went to sleep at 7.30pm (having had 1.5hrs nap)
then woke up at
8.15pm
9.10pm
9.50pm and was awake till 12.15am
then again at 5.15am and 5.45am and up for the day at 6.30am!!!

this is a typical night basically he wakes up 6-7 times a night.
when he wakes he just keeps yelling out for my sister then throwing everything out of his bed and kicking it basically having a tantrum until she goes in.  She has tried WI/WO but this seems to make him worse. It's not his molars as they have come out and she tried giving him paracetemol before bed thinking this might help but no joy!

She is desperate she is surviving on very little sleep and last night when i spoke to her she admitted that she is starting to resent him and dislike him because of his sleep and his behaviour in the day because he is tired.

Any ideas? what should his routine perhaps look like at this age? is he ready to drop his nap?

Like i said he used to be a great sleeper so she is not sure why it has gone so wrong in the last few weeks!

Thanks

 

[aisling]

Hi!

I think his routine is fine and it is good she tried to cut down the nap.  This sleep blip is more than likely an age/developmental thing and hopefully will pass with a bit of training.  He has a good sleep base, so it will come back for the two of them, if that gives her hope.

I think he may be going through some Sep Anx as well due to developmental gains (probably emotional and mental gains vs physical.)  Is he becoming more talkative and his imagination growing?  This gave us some sleep disruption at that age. I would try GW as WI/WO I feel is not a great one for Sep Anx.  He is now in OT mode right now due to all the wakings, so if I were her, I would do anything possible to get him to sleep a few days, even if it involved her staying on a mat in his room and then she can work toward gently weaning herself out of there and getting him to completely fall asleep independently again. Falling asleep without her assistance is the only way for him to stop the NW's.

In regards to the naps, this is the age that they start to transition away from the nap being of any use. There is a support group in this forum and lots of families are going through this with some LO's taking almost 6 months to a year to transition! The fact that he falls asleep no probs for nap is good....BUT...what about bedtime is he messing about there?  That was the reason for us to get rid of it. My DS functions better on a 12 hour night than a 10 hour night plus daytime sleep.  This is something she needs to weigh. Once through the hump, she could try some days with naps and some without.  If he has no nap then he needs to be in bed 11-12 hours from wake up time.

HTH,

Aisling x

[Jenn©]

Just stopping in to say hi Poppy!!! 

[Poppy & Lily]

Hi,

Thanks for your quick reply aisling!

With regards to him falling asleep it can take him up to 1-1.5hrs to fall asleep most nights! should i get her to try 1 day with no nap and see what happens or is the huge amount of OT he has at the moment going to affect it?

So lets say his routine in the day at the moment is typically

6-6.30am-Awake
12.30-2pm -Nap (sometimes 12pm-1.30pm)
7-7.30pm bed (then the numerous NW's!!)

does this sound ok for now or should she be changing it to try and cope with the OT?  With regards to his development, yes he is talking alot more and i guess his imagination is growing too!

If it's just a blip then thats great, but she is so scared that this is how his sleep is going to be from now on, like you said she can't seem to get past the OT that has built up over the last few weeks.  Would letting him nap for longer for a few days to overcome this help at all??

'Waving' hi Jenn!!!!!!!

xxxxx

[aisling]

Yes I would let him nap longer just now, expect the taking longer going to bed that night but put him in a bit later so there is no mucking about as much.  I say 6 hours from wake up from nap. Then after a couple days start with getting the nap a bit shorter and then see how it goes.  He is still a bit young to drop the nap officially just yet, but this could be the start of the transition and it does take long.  We stopped with the naps just before his 3rd bday and it made life much simpler. 12 hours up 12 hours asleep. I also liked that I got my evenings back as at one point it was taking him almost until 9pm (almost needing close to 7 hour awake time from nap no matter how short) to fall asleep and I was not keen on that for him or us kwim?

So if she puts him to bed closer to 8pm after a good nap and encourage him going to sleep on his own with a night light etc... he may take longer but he will be going to sleep on his own, so when he does wake (which is normal through the night especially with napping, I know from myself too the body/mind is just not that tired to sleep so solid all night long) he will know how to relax and get back to sleep on his own without Mum's help.

A x

[Poppy & Lily]

Hi Aishling,

I'm back again

Spoke to my sister this morning she said that he was really bad last night!

He went to bed at 7.30pm was asleep by 7.45pm then he woke up as follows:

8.45pm
9.45pm
10.30pm (was awake till 11.30pm)
12.30pm
2.30am
6.45am (woke up)

She treid to sit in with him after the 1st waking but he got hysterical when she wouldn't pick him up so she left.

Am i right in thinking that early evening wakings are caused by OT??

I have told her to let him sleep for 2hrs today 12-2pm and put him to be at say about 7.45-8pm and to do this for a couple of days and see if this sorts out the OT? is this ok?

I just don't understand why he is waking literally every hour he's not in pain he just wants to mess about??

any ideas?? really appreciate it, this is affecting the whole of her family and I fear that her and BIL are are breaking point, BIL is of the mindset of close the door and let him scream all night that will teach him that no one is coming in to him

xxxx

[aisling]

Aww bless.  HUGS.  Yes the early wakings would be OT.  Th messing about I think is a phase and that he needs to get out of for their whole family's sake.  I do think it is developmental and once he sorts that out it will pass.  I do feel some of it is behavioral and she can treat it like all other behavioral troubles as she normally does.  Has she sat down with him in the afternoon when they are just having a cuddle and talk about how it is disrupting everyone and that Mummy wants to help, but night time is for sleeping etc...

So let him nap and get some rest so he goes to bed more rested and then she really has to get him back on track with a good wind down and routine that is the same each evening and getting him to understand that night time is for resting and it is good.  Could she give a whole fresh approach and get him a new stuffed animal let's say or a nice bedtime snack and or a new nite lite for example. 

Can she ask him if he is afraid of shadows or monsters (without putting ideas in his head LOL!) or anything like that as this is the age. Ask him if he woudl lie t sleep with something of Mummy's like a vest or something that has her smell to keep him company. (DS sleeps with an old nite shirt of mine)  She really has to take a week of GW and assure him that Mummy is there but he can sleep on his own.  I do feel he has got into a Sep Anx phase due to development. Boys really go through this around this age I find.   Sorry am rushing, will check in and see how goes, got to run.

A x

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hi!

I just saw this and your nephew sounds just like Masyn lately...she was crying out at night 4 or 5 times for no real reason that I could see other than to get me in there! (of course this happened right when Spencer is finally sleeping through the night!)

She is 30 months old now and has a 45-1h nap most days, in bed by 7, asleep by 7:45ish and up at 7 sharp....I really didn't think she was ready to give up her nap completely so I had a talk with her about how everyone else is trying to sleep and that if she is sick or hurt and needs me I will come, but that otherwise she has her light up glow bug to comfort her at night. I also used a little bribery and told her if she was quiet all night she could watch her favourite Dora episode in the morning....and I was amazed that the first night I never heard a peep! I really wasn't sure she would understand our "talk" but it really sunk in for her!

HTH
Heidi

[Poppy & Lily]

Hi Ladies,

Thank you for your replies

Just wanted to update you! sister had a better nightlast night  all around

DN had a a nap from 12-1.50pm,was in bed at 7.30 and asleep by 7.45pm.  He woke up twice between 10-10.30pm but needed littel resettling sister went in said it was sleepy time and laid him back down and he went back to sleep.  Then he woke up once at 1.30am and again she laid him back down and said sleepy time and he slept till 6.45am this morning!

Is she doing the right thing? or do you think he is getting over his blip?? she's not sure if it is the longer naps which is helping him overcome his OT that is doing it or if he is getting over the whole developmental thing?? 

Also how long does she keep the 2hr nap for?

Aishing how long do developmental stages last??

Also She sat him down and had a chat with him about sleeping etc.....and reassured him she wasn't far!

Anyway will keep you updated. Today he slept for 1hr 40mins and was asleep by 7.30pm! so lets see what tonight brings for her

Thanks for all you help we both really appreciate it

xxx

[aisling]

OH!  Good to hear.  I feel these blips can last anywhere from 1-2 weeks. So it sounds like things are calming down.  Good he only need a bit of reassuring and that is good she is saying, sleepy time etc...so eventually he will say this "mantra" to himself hopefully. I would let the naps go as long as needed at this time until he seems much more rested and secure again.  Then she can tweak from there.

Speak soon,

A x

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

That's good to hear! Thinking on it now, it's been a couple of weeks this has been going on for Masyn....I keep repeating our talk in short form every night and naptime so it is fresh in her head. She's still being quiet all night and in the morning too, cross my fingers! I'd agree to let the naps go as long as he needs until he's not OT anymore. Hope it works out!

Heidi

[Poppy & Lily]

Hi Ladies,

Just wanted to update you guys and have a few questions from sis!

Ok generally his sleeping has got better he has been having 2hr naps usually from 12-2pm or 12.30-2.15pm (on nursery days).  But he wakes up everynight exactly 2 hrs from when he went to sleep my sister can set her clock by him .  She goes in and lays him down and says night night sleepy time and he will go off no problem but then he wakes up in 1hrs time from there and she does the same thing. He will then wake up at 5.45am to start his day .

So for example yesterday his day looked like this:

5.45 awake (managed to get him back till 6.20am)
12.20pm-2.10pm -Nap
7.30pm-Bed (fel asleep at 7.50pm)
9.50pm-Woke up
10.50-woke up
5.45am-awake

So even though he has stopped waking up screaming in the night he still has early evening wake ups and early morning wake up. 

Should she be cutting back his 2hr nap now or keep it? is that causing th EW's? and why does he wake up exactly 2hrs after falling asleep is that habit

Does anyone know why he is having these wakings in the early evening ang getting up stupidly early

TIA

Poppy xxxxx

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Poppy,

I'm wondering if he's all caught up on sleep now and maybe needs the nap cut back a bit. Masyn usually does an hour nap, unless she's sick, then we let her sleep all she wants. So her day is like this:

7 am - wake
12:30/1:00 - nap for 1 hr
6:45 - in bed, asleep by 7:30 at the latest.

She's stopped waking at night, sometimes I hear her cry out - but if I peek in she is asleep, so I think it's just a bad dream. I'm not sure about the waking 2h aftre bed, but I'd think its a habit, Masyn used to wake at 10:30, which was right when I did Spencer's dreamfeed, and even when I stopped doing it she still would wake up!

HTH
Heidi

[Poppy & Lily]

Hi Heidi,

Thankyou for your reply

So should I get her to cut back his nap to say 1.5hrs? would this help with the EW's?

Also with the habitual waking how did you break the cycle with masyn? he literally wakes up after 2 hrs  on the dot! I do agree that he has caught up on all his lost sleep i think she's worried that if she cuts back his nap he will go back to square 1 with the numerous NW's

also do you think the 1-2 other wakings he has after the 2 hr waking is habit as well? from what i understand he says wakes up at 9.50pm and is not really restful until say 11.30pm, he then sleeps through till 5.45am!

Thanks

 

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hi Poppy,

I think I would try an 1.75h nap for a few days and see what the NW's are like, we kind of experimented with Masyn on both the timing and length of her nap and it seems to work out that she needs 5.5 - 6 h of A time and then an hour nap. She can get through the day without a nap, but it's not that pretty  .  Then, maybe cut back by 15 minutes every few days until it works out. If he's not really restful in the evening on a 2h nap, maybe just cutting back on the day sleep will help him sleep deeper at night.

With her habitual waking, I guess I kind of did wake-to-sleep by going in before Spencer's feed time and tucking her in - it wouldn't wake her totally, but enough to offset her sleep cycle. Plus I'm not walking sround up there at that time anymore - our floors make alot of noise and I think that started the habit!


oh, and you're welcome! I'm glad to help 
Heidi