When to do w2sleep?

[Micky01]

Hi Alexa!  Yesteday's pm nap went well after the 3.5 hrs of A time.  He went right down at 3:35.  This is later than usual because of the late wake up, so I did wake him at 4:45!   He went right down for bed at 7:30, woke at 9:30 and I fed him, then up again around 2am, (just one pick up and he was back down), then up for the day at 5:35.  Not loving that early wake, but not a bad night.  This morning I kept him up until 9am, He fell asleep at 9:20.  He slept for an hour.  Then put him in the crib at 1:35pm.  He fell asleep at 1:44 ( I know this because I am still sitting on his floor , but that's another battle!)  So, after 3 hours and 25 min of A time, he slept for a hour and a half! .  Up at 3:15.  So I am going to shoot for a 7pm into crib, thinking it will take 20 min or so to fall asleep.  What do you think?
Thanks!
Jess

[~Alexa~]

Hi Jess!! I'm sorry I couldn't answer before, but I think 7 pm in crib is a bit late.  He should be asleep by 7 pm, so if it usually takes him 20 min to fall asleep, have him in the crib at 6.40 pm.   

Let me know what you decide and how the night goes!

Is it possible that your lo is hungry during the night?
Could you post your routine including feeding times (milk feeds) and solids?

Alexa

[Micky01]

You are very good at this!   He was definately ready before 7pm.  I was feeding him dinner at about 6 and he was showing tired signs so we finished and did a real quick bath and wind down.  He was in the crib by 6:30, but I think already a little ot.  Fussed some and fell asleep around 7:10.  Then awake for a feed at 10pm.  He woke a few times before 5am, but was able to get himself back to sleep, then a hard wake at 5am, I had to hold him some (didn't want the crying to wake his sister who had already been up a few times).  He fell back to sleep until 6am.

As far as hunger goes, we did drop a feed about a week or so ago, He wasn't real interested in the 10am feed, so I have been giving him a snack instead.  So here is what yesterday looked like:

wake: 5:30
BF: 6:20
Solids:7:45 - toast, pureed fruit, dry cereal, water
Nap 1: 9:20 to 10:20
Snack: 10:30 - crackers, fruit strip, water
Solids for lunch: 12:30- cheese quesadilla, pureed veggie( only took a few bites), offered diced up   
                                 grapes, but he didn't eat them
BF: 1:30
Nap 2: 1:45 to 3:15
Snack: 3:30 - graham cracker, pieces of a cereal bar, water
Dinner:5:45 - pasta noodles, diced ham, cheese, offered steamed brocolli but he just played with it,       
                    I gave him pureed sweet potatoes intead.  He didn't eat a ton of dinner.  I think
                    because he was getting tired.
Bath, wind down :6:15
BF and into crib : 6:30  He had a pretty good BF here, we do a book after BF, so he is not being fed
                     to sleep. Do you think I should BF at like 5:30 and then do solids after?  To make
                     sure he is getting enough milk?
BF: 10pm. He ate really well.

He won't drink formula, so water is all we are putting in his sippy.  I also offer chopped fruit at every meal, but he is really not interested in it.  I'm not giving up though!  I'm still doing that feed at 10pm too and he usually eats really well.  I would like to drop it eventually though, was going to try in April.  When I do that, do you think I should go back to 4 feeds during the day or just try to get more solids in him? Or do you think I should try to go back to 4 now?  Sorry for all the questions! And please don't appologize for not getting back to me quickly.  I am just so grateful for your help!

Just wanted to add that he is 22 lbs and has just started climbing stair, pulling himself up and cruising along the furniture!!

[~Alexa~]

Hi there!! So your lo is getting 4 milkfeed in a day!! That's good, but I would try something and see if the NW stop!! Try to give him one more milkfeed during the day.
Your lo has been having some NWs, so I would try to tank him up during the day and see if he gets a better night.  Does this make sense?
Just like an experiment! We have nothing to lose! What do you think?

I would try something like this:

6.30 - Milk
8.00am – Solids
11:00/11.30am - Milk
12:00/12.30pm - Solids
3:00/3.30pm - Milk
4:00/4.30pm – Solids
6:15/6.30pm - Milk
DF 10 pm (I wouldn't drop it yet, until we get rid of NWs)

Remember that milk should be your lo's main source of nutrition until he turns 12 mo.  Milk has more fat than solids, so solids are digested more quickly.  Milk is what makes bubs STTN without waking up for a feed, not solids. 

I think that the EW was caused b/c he went to bed OT! When he woke up at 5 am, did he cry, or was he chatting in his crib?

How has today gone?

[Micky01]

Hi Alexa! I'm up for the experiment!  And yes, I agree he was OT at bedtime.  When up at 5 he was angry to be awake .  When he woke at 6am, he was chatting for a while, so he needed that extra hour for sure.  Tomorrow will most likely be the same. Naps weren't as good today and he went to bed WAY OT.  This was today:
 
wake:6am
Nap 1: in crib at 9am, asleep at 9:20.  Only slept for 55 min, awake at 10:13.

Nap 2:  I figured nap 1 was close enough to an hour, so he was up for 3 hrs, 55 min.  Too long I know now. I had him in the crib at 1:35, which was 3 hrs. 25 min and then and then it took him 20 min to fall asleep.  He only slept for 25 min .  DD was having her quiet time, so I decided to sit on his floor and see  if he would go back to sleep.  He did 15  min of talking and then 30 min of screaming, then I finally got him up at 3:30.  He was all smiles and played really nicely.  I tried to do a catnap at 4:30 but he wouldn't settle, just talked and squirmed around.   Had to help DD with some things, so finally gave up and just fed him dinner. 

Bed: 6:00, fell asleep, already had one wake at 6:55, he fell right back to sleep, so sure this is going to be a rough night!!

I'm thinking that second A time should have been around 3 hrs to 3hours 15 min.  Is  that right?  Its so hard to tell with him!
Thanks!
Jess

[~Alexa~]

Hi Jess!! Your lo went to bed OT!!
You need to be consistent!! Don't change your lo's A times every day.  Try to have them 3 hr 20 - 3 hr 30 min for 3 days before you make any new adjustments.  Your lo is getting OT, and we need to get him out of it.  Remember consistency!! So try 3 hr 20 min As for 3 days.  If you decide to change them, then just add 10 min or so.

Your lo is having very long As after short naps, so definitely he's getting OT. 

I'll be away for the weekend and won't be able to get online until Monday.  So keep those A times as close as 3.5 hrs and let's see what happens.

Good luck!
Keep me posted! I'll come and check your post on MOn night!
ALexa

[Micky01]

Hi Alexa!   Welcome back! I hope you had an good weekend!   Things have been OK here.  We have been sticking to the 3.5 hr A times with some success  .  Some things have been going on at night that I would like your opinion about also,  but I  have to run to an appt. now.  I will get back later!  Thanks again for all of your help.
Jess

[~Alexa~]

I'll be waiting!! 

Hugs
Alexa

[Micky01]

Hi Alexa.  Sorry it has taken me so long to get back, we had a new roof put on the house and had to go to grandma's to get some peace and quiet!  We're back and I wanted to let you know that we have seen some progress with naps.  We have been sticking to 3h 20 min for first A time and averaging 1 hr naps.  Sometimes 1.20, sometimes only 40 min, but usually 1 hr. Although yesterday we were at grandma's and I had him in the crib at the 3.5hr mark, but he didn't fall asleep until 4hrs!.  Then he slept for 1.5 hrs, so don't know what that was about because he was definately ot.     Second A time, I've been keeping to 3h, 30 min if first nap was 1 hr or more, 3 hr to 3 hr 15 min if first nap was less than 1 hr.  This nap has also been averaging an hour.  Most days this just won't get him through, so he has been going to bed around 6p.  Doing better at night too.  Still giving a feed around 9:30 or 10.  Then sometimes a wake around 3, but real easy to get back down.  He has also been waking around 5am (and this is where my next question is )  The other night I was not feeling well and instead of fighting him on the 5am wake, I just decided to go ahead and feed him.  He went back to sleep and slept until 7:30am!!   I know I don't want to get into the habit of adding another night feed, but I have done it 1 other time since and he slept until 7.  It makes the rest of the day so much easier as it pushes naps forward and he doesn't get so tired at the end of the day.  I was thinking, maybe I should try and drop the 10p feed and just do it at 5a instead?  What do you think about this and do you think I should try to extend any A times yet? Thank you for your time!
Jess

[~Alexa~]

Have you tried giving another milkfeed during the day? May be at 11.30 am? Like I suggested in my pp?
I think that if your lo is needing a feed at 5 am, then he needs the extra calories.  I would try to introduce another milkfeed during the day. 

I'm not sure about dropping the DF cold turkey.  This could only cause that your lo wakes up in the middle of the night (3-4 am) hungry.   

About the naps...There are two ways to go..
1.  Let your lo sleep as long as he wants for the am nap.  So we would keep adding A to the first one. And then have a very short pm nap.
2.  Have a short am nap (1hr or even less), and then have a long pm nap.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=95670.0

What do you think? Which way would you like to go?

[Micky01]

Hi   Yes I have been doing that extra feed for about a week now.  Sometimes he's real interested, sometimes not, but I keep doing it anyways!  I was also concerned about dropping the df.  I have fed him a few times at the 5am wake just to get him back to sleep without any fussing.  He is so loud that he wakes his sister who is in a light sleep phase at that hour. , but I really don't want it to become a habit.  On those days, I just count it as his first feed of the day.  Do you think it is just better to deal with early wake ups rather than to get in the habit of another night feed?  Just need someone else's opinion on that one.  I feel like I'm taking the easy way out every time I do that.
With naps, I think I'll do option 2.  At least that way I'm giving him the chance for 2 good naps if he'll do them. 
Thank you!
Jess

[~Alexa~]

Ok, so if you keep feeding him at 5 am, it may become habitual, so the EW will never stop.  If he wakes up to chat and sing, then let him be.  Don't go to him, just ignore him.  Let him play in his crib until wake up time.  he may surprise you and go back to sleep.  If he cries, go to him, calm him down, give him a toy or something, and let him be in his crib until his usual wake up time.  I always keep my lo's am nap at the same time even if he gets EW. 

If you go with option 2, then you will have to wake him up from that first nap so he is tired enough to get a long pm nap. 

So keep me posted on how your day goes and we can tweak your routine until we get it right!
xxx
Alexa

[nazmommy]

Okay, I am BRAND new and have no idea how to do this but I need help with this too.  My 5 month dd has always taken 30 minute naps.  I reinforced that at the beginning, thinking that was "just" her but then she was cranky and now I am stuck.  I am trying w2s but it doesn't seem to be working.  Maybe I am doing it wrong....
We are also paci weaning.  We are on day 6. She was an addict.  That has gone well and our nights are way better.  But the naps are still horrible.  She doesn't settle well and then its only 30 minutes long.  She is overtired all day. HELP!!

[Micky01]

Oops, sorry Alexa,  I meant option 1, not 2.  I don't want to wake him from his am nap.  I would like to let him sleep as long as possible for that one and then do the shorter pm nap.

[~Alexa~]

Nazmommy,
(((Big Hugs))) I'm sorry you are having such a tough time with your lo's naps!! Short naps suck!!
I'm thinking that it is better for you to start a new thread where you post your routine and whatever is happening right now with your lo.  I can help you out with w2s and other techniques that we might use to help your lo take longer naps.  But, this thread is more about older babies (10 mo) so I think it would be more useful and helpful for you to start a new thread.  What do you think? I'll be looking for your thread so I can jump in and give you some advice. 
Post your routine (or whatever your day looks like)!!

Micky,
So, if you want to go with option 1, then we need to add time to your lo's first A in the morning.  Could you post your routine for the next couple of days so I can help you tweaking it so we get a longer am nap?  We will have to add 15 min to that A every 3 days.

HTHs
Alexa