Trying to find some sleep....please help!

[Francy&Ricky]

Hello everybody.

My name is Francesca and I am posting from Italy.

My son Riccardo is now 18 months old. He's never slept well, with many night wakings (even every 45 min/every hour) and very early morning wakings.
Now, after trying almost everything except letting him cry out (I found those methods really barbaric!), we reached a good compromise.
We solved the bedtime problems with bedtime routine and PU/PD (he falls asleep between 8 and 8.30 pm in his bed as I sit in a chair next to the cot). For the night wakings, after 17 months of almost no sleep, we decided to try with a drug.
Now the situation has really improved. He wakes up only once or twice per night and his sleep is deeper and more restful.

But we still have a couple of problems.

Usually he wakes up somewhere between 2 and 4 am but there is no way of letting him stay in his cot. He cryes hard and wants to stay with me and touch me and pulling my hair, he really sticks to me like a leech. Usually, just to be more confortable than on a chair, I bring him to my bed trying to sleep other 2-3 hours; but, as you can understand, this is impossible, since he climbs me and pulls my hair the whole time.

The second problem is that, after this kind of night, he wakes up no later than 6 am, while I am sure he could rest longer.

How can I teach him to fall back to sleep in his cot and stay there till waking up?

And how can I make him sleep longer?

[color=blue]PLEASE HELP ME![/color] I am desperate for my lack of sleep. I really need to sleep and to sleep better….

Thanks a lot
Francesca

[Colin Macs Mom]

Bumping up for you!

[deckchariot]

{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}  It sounds like you've really had a rough time!  I'm so glad to hear that you've not left him to cry it out - BW agrees with you on that!  Since he's not really even been an independent sleeper, I would suggest using the gradual withdrawal method (which sounds a bit like what you're doing now):  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

You will need to be very consistent and use it all the time - both for putting him to sleep and for his NWs.  I'm concerned that by sometimes bringing him to bed with you, that may be undoing the work you're doing to get him to go to sleep on his own.  He doesn't know if he "needs" to go to sleep on his own or if he cries enough you'll bring him to bed with you.  With both gw and wi/wo there will be crying, but you will be there to comfort your child, but he stays in his bed.  It's really hard to break habits that have gone on for so long, but it can be done without leaving him there to cry it out.

hth
michelle

[Francy&Ricky]

Hi Michelle,

thanks for your suggestions and advices! 

At this point I am really determined to make him stay in his bed and to be consistent!!!!

I've already worked out a strategy and started with it. I had very little sleep during the last couple of nights and I know it will be a hard and long road, but I AM ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE AND OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE FUTURE!

Thanks again for giving me advices, and, most of all, for giving me support and motivation!!
I'll keep you posted on my future success!

Francesca

[deckchariot]

YAY for you Francesca!!!!!!  I"m so proud of you for developing a plan and starting it.  {{{{{{hugs}}}}} on the very little sleep.   It's so hard to start sleep training when your bub is older.  I really admire you for doing it.  It will absolutely be worth it - I guarantee it!!!  He will learn, and you will get some sleep   I wish I could promise you when that would be.....but I will be here through the whole process!  You can do this!!!!!

[Francy&Ricky]

Hi!

Some news.

After 10 days situation is improving (except for two nights when teething was really hurting for Ricky).
Now we have a new rule: everyone stays in his bed, at least untill 6 am, that is the time when I get up. We had some very early wakings, crying and wanting to go to momy and daddy's bed.

We have started with me seated next to the bed comforting Ricky but not picking him up until it was time to wake up. But this morning I had kind of intuition that SA was only part of the problem and that the other part was a beginning of manipulation, so I decided it was time to go a step further and start with WI/WO.

I think it worked. There was crying (but I should say calling loud and moaning and crying starting then stopping and fussy-type cries) as I went in and out of the room. It lasted about 45 minutes and then he fell asleep and slept for another hour untill 6. Then we had milk and went to momy and daddy's and he slept other two hours with his dad.

What do you think?
Can this work in the long run?
Should I change something?

Hugs
Francesca

[deckchariot]

wow - you've made LOADS of progress!!!!!  Well done on discerning that it was time for some wi/wo after doing gw!!!  I'm a bit confused though - he's stays in bed til 6 (love that "rule" - we have a similar one in our house!), bbut then it looks like he then went to your bed and slept til 8?  Is that right?  If so, I've got a couple of concerns - first, he's still getting to sleep in your bed, which may continue to cause confusion for him (he can't tell time, so he doesn't know that after 6 he can go to your bed; he just knows that eventually he gets to go to your bed).  And second, that going back to sleep for 2 hrs in the morning often wreaks havoc with the napping routine - many mums find it actually sabotages a good nap.

so.....if you don't see more progress with independent sleep, you may have to institute a new "rule" of no sleeping in mommy and daddy's bed.  And, you may want to cut out that extra morning sleep in to preserve the nap later.  But, if this is working for you, you can by all means keep it the way it is.

[Francy&Ricky]

I think you are right about sleeping in our bed, but I have to say that the 6to8 thing happened just once....it was really an extraordinary fact. Usually by 6-6.30 he is wide-awake (sometimes by 5.30!!!). He stays in our bed only few minutes to have his milk and get some cuddles before starting the day. But, maybe, for this sleep training period is better if we completely forget mommy and daddy's bed for a while......just to avoid confusion.
Thank you for helping me see things under a different light. I realize that sometimes, when dealing with kids issues, it is not easy to look at things from different angles.

There is another thing I've noticed since I started. His sleeping is really seesaw. One night he sleeps for 8 hours and wakes up just once and I go with WI/WO and the night after he wakes up two or three times or stays awake for one hour. Do you think it can be a phase of the sleeping training and that in the long run things are going to settle? Or maybe it depends on teething (molars in this case)? We have never had particular problems with teething but I see molars are really tough.
Can I do anything else to help him?

Francesca

[deckchariot]

If he's just having milk and cuddles in your bed, you can probably do that once the sleep training is all settled - I see no reason to give that up totally.  Once he's going to sleep on his own and sleeping through the night on his own, you can feel free to do milk and cuddles in bed   But for now, it might make sleep training easier to have the bed off limits. 

The seesaw sleep could just be him adjusting to the sleep training - sometimes it's easier for him, some nights it's harder.  But if he's teething molars, yep, that could do it.  Molars are a beast!  do you give him any pain meds?  We've found that giving them 30 min before sleep times seems to work the best.  If you think it's pain that's causing some of the NWs, you can also medicate then.  We love Hylands teething tablets!  On really bad nights, we'll use ibuprofen at bedtime as well.  If you're not sure if it's pain, I'd keep up with the wi/wo and see if it just settles itself out.

You're doing a wonderful job!!!!  and you've made so much progress!!!

[Francy&Ricky]

Hi!

I think we are on the right track!
Our bed is off limits now and this seems to really help DS adjust to the new sleeping rules.
I can feel it considering Ricky's reactions to the training and how sleep is evolving.
We still have seesawing nights and road is still long, but I can see a light......and I keep saying to myself "Keep going, stick with it and be consistent..."

But now I have a new worry....
We are going to visit my family in Rome during Easter holidays. We will stay in hotel and concerning Riccardo's sleep we have only two alternatives: sleep in bed with us or sleep in a travel cot next to our bed in the same room.
Do you think this will spoil all the work we've done so far?
Any suggestions on how to handle the situation?

Thanks   

[deckchariot]

Well done!!!!  You are doing so well!!!!!

ahhh the vacation dilemma.....we generally bring a travel cot for Abby, and put it on the other side of the hotel room from us (as far away as possible), and do wi/wo as best we can there (we almost always have to do it in hotels, because we don't want to go to bed at 7:30, and she doesn't want to go to bed if we're awake).  Since you're in the midst of the sleep training, I'd try not to have him sleep in your bed.  Even though he'll be sharing a room, if he's in his own bed, that still reinforces what you've been doing at home.  We generally just do the best we can, and then pick up where we left off when we get home.

[Francy&Ricky]

Hi!

We are back...and still alive.

We've been on vacation, just five days, and sleeping was better than I thought.
I did what you suggested and tried to stay tuned to our strategy. We put the travel cot very far from our bed and he never came to us. When he woke up, I just went to the cot, said "shh, go back to sleep" and went back to my bed. It worked, maybe also because he was really tired of the very busy days we had....

But, since we came back one week ago, we have experienced a lot of relapses, seesaw sleep, wakings, not wanting to go to nursery school, irritability...............................................

And, no matter at what time he goes to bed, he always wakes up between 5 and 6 am  , but I don't know if it is because he is an early bird....he look so tired and still in need of sleep. Can I do something for that?

Thank you very much....

[deckchariot]

Sorry it took me a bit to respond - we also have been away!  How's the sleeping going now?  If you're still getting the EWs, and he seems tired, you could try w2s if you think the waking is habitual.  What's his general routine now in terms of wake up, nap, and bedtime?

YAY for doing so well on vacation though!  That's a win!

[Francy&Ricky]

Hi Michelle!

Don't worry....Hope you were on a great vacation.

Things really changed from when I posted the first time, so I decided to start a new topic (http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=148997.0), where Jenn@ gave me something to think about concerning the medication we are giving to Ricky.

We still have some problems and I have to admit that our 5 days vacation didn't really help...When we got back we experienced a kind of regression, despite the fact that during the 5 days away things ran great.

Now we have an average of 2-3 NWs (but the first ones are quite easy to handle, even if we would love to cut them..) and very very EARLY WAKINGS, usually around 5 am. The problem is that during the day he is so tired and he needs energy (he goes to nursery school).

Some moms suggested me to try with an earlier bedtime, so I started to anticipate his bedtime (usually 8 pm), but it's just two days...

Anyway, I make a summary of the last 2 nights:

Tuesday:
7.30 pm   ASLEEP IN BED (no problems, he was tired)
11.00 am  FIRST NW (just went in, gave him paci back and he fell back asleep)
4.40 am   SECOND NW (same as first one, but he was more awaken and I found him standing in his cot crying when I got in)
5.00 am   WAKE UP (1 hour WI/WO, but didn't get back to sleep)
6.00 am   DAY BEGAN (milk, changing and so on...)

Wednesday:
During the morning he was really in need of sleep (almost fell asleep on our way to school), but didn't want to nap at school, fell asleep during lunch and napped till 3.30. Then fell asleep again at 4.15 in the car on our way back home and napped other 45 minutes till I picked him up (I was afraid it was not helpful to let him sleep too much at that hour of the day). Obviously he continued to be very tired, fussy and irritable.

7.20 pm   ASLEEP IN BED (no problems at all, he was really really tired)
2.00 am   FIRST and only NW - very lucky us! (just went in, gave him paci back and he fell back asleep)
5.00 am   WAKE UP (1 hour WI/WO, not much crying but so much moaning and screaming calling for someone; he was very tired 
              but still didn't get back to sleep)
6.00 am   DAY BEGAN (milk, changing and so on...) and he was already tired.

Since I have noticed that the EW is kind of habitual (around 5 am) I definetely could try with W2S. According to your experience, how should I do it? Going to him and really wake him up? And how much time before usual EW?

Thaks for support.
Lots of Hugs

[deckchariot]

I've just found the new thread you've started, so if it's ok, I'll lock this one and hop on over to that one - that way everything is all in one place for you