Desperate for help with OT 8mo old

[sherb]

OK, so the baby is screaming in bed after an hour of trying to get her to sleep.  I would have been happy to use any sort of AP to get her down, but nothing is working. She is exhausted, and I can only assume that tonight will be a disaster.  I know I am not supposed to just let her cry, I don't want to do that either, but I have a 3 year old who has essentially been on his own for the last hour and I have to at least be present for him. So I can either burst into tears, or channel my energy into asking for help while the baby screams and the toddler talks non-stop.

Baby has never been the greatest sleeper.  She was extremely colicky as a newborn. Just as she started to get past that she was hospitalized with flu. She had reflux and could only sleep propped up for several months. Even now she only sleeps on her front.  There has always been something making it hard to get her to sleep.  Frustratingly, I was fully aware of how important it is to teach her to self-sooth when she hit that important 3 - 4 month window, but here she is, 8 months old and she is a real disaster.

I tried CIO, and have read Dr. Weissbluths Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child cover to cover several times.  It worked great with my son, but I had plenty of time to lie with him, pat his back, shhhh, hum. Whatever he needed to ease him into sleep.  Now I am on my own with 2, my husband more often than not, not around when I need to be with her. My son is actually great, but I can't completely abandon him for the extensive time it takes.  I have no other help around. Tonight I had to try to get her down early, because she didn't nap properly this aft either, but at the same time my son needed his dinner. I got her in there by 6:30, but it wasn't enough, now it is an hour later and she's in hysterics.  To top it off, my sister-in-law and her daughter are about to arrive for a 3 week stay, so I had to prepare something for them!! It wasn't much, believe me, and I barely have the energy to stand let alone have guests, but it is all just too much!  I need help - where have we gone wrong?

We started PU/PD with her about 10 days ago. I think this is where the serious OT problem started.  She did really, really great at first, with the help of an amazing BW moderator!  Her nights were much, much better.  However, she was awake quite a bit at night, as I was no longer going to her to nurse, and she started to have trouble napping in the day. I played a bit with her schedule, keeping her up a bit longer between naps.  We had about 2 great days with 2 pretty good naps and 12 hour nights with minimal waking.  Then we had a bad night. Then she woke early and didn't take a great afternoon nap. I tried to get her to bed early but she wouldn't settle. She woke often at night, I kept doing PD and it worked but still, she was up often, getting more and more tired.  Woke early again. Etc. Now we are in this horrible cycle. OT - can't sleep -  more OT - even less sleep. And on, and on.  I have no idea how to catch her up. She is a very easily stimulated baby. Any sound and she can't sleep, especially when she is OT.  I can't even nurse her to sleep right now, her eyes are like saucers. She is almost falling over in her bed, but then forces herself up. I put her down, she screams, I calm her, she sits up again.  Sigh.  She's still screaming. 10min. Husband still not here with family, son needs mommy nearby.  I swear, I need real help - I'd pay to have someone check in with us daily, someone with perspective, and is way less tired than I am, to help us tweak our schedule and find some miracle technique that will get her sleeping. I'd almost rather go back to nursing her every hour all night right now.

Anyhow - here is our schedule when we were doing well:

Wake up - 7am
7am - breastfeed
8am - solids
9am - nap - 1.5 to 2 hrs - nursing before nap if needed
noon - solids
2pm - nap 1.5 to 2 hrs - nursing before nap if needed
6pm - solids
7pm - breastfeed then bed.

Activity during waking time, of course.

This is what today looked like:
6:15 - wake up, nurse in bed with mommy for 45 min (I am desperate to get her more sleep - I'd do any kind of AP just to get her rested now!  We're taking huge steps backwards!)
7:30 - solids
8:30 - nursing and down for nap. Takes 30 minutes.
10:20 - wake from nap
11am - solids
1pm - nursing and attempt nap. Give up at 45 min. Would have happily nursed her to sleep, nothing would work (note, I could not have put her down any earlier than this today, I had to pick my son up from school, then feed him).
2:30 - try nap again.  Takes 45 min, sleeps for 45 min only!
4:30 - seems really tired. Try to get catnap. No dice.
5:30 - solids
6:15 - nursing and bed. Won't go to sleep. Try PD for 45 min, no luck. Try nursing, no luck. Son comes into room and disturbs us. Baby freaks out, mom freaks out and turns to BW site for help.  Baby is still crying - 15 mins.  Still no one here to help me (though I should note that my husband is picking up his sister, usually he would be here by this point).

Any ideas at all?   Anyone want to be my BW buddy and check in with us for a few days to see if we can figure out how to get her rested.  I don't know what to do, I'll have to go try nursing her to sleep again now, so on top of it all, I will have reinforced her screaming for an hour or more before sleep. Sorry for rambling, but I know there are lots of you out there that feels my frustration.

[clazzat]

(((hugs))) It sounds so hard for you - I wish I had a magical solution that would make everything better.  I don't know if I have any good suggestions, but I'm happy to try.

Firstly, would she sleep in a sling, or at least stop crying?  If so, you could go and get her and wear her while you look after ds - I had the same problem with my 2 and trying to give both of them attention.  Then once ds is sorted/dh comes home you can go back to trying to get her to sleep.

Secondly, have you tried keeping her morning nap at the same time despite EW?  For some babies it works to fix the routine and if she goes to sleep more quickly then she will get more sleep.  I know there is the risk of more OT, but it could be worth a try.

Thirdly, is her reflux under control?  If she's finding it so hard to go to sleep that might be a factor.

Happy to be here for support, and to give any advice I can.  (((hugs)))
Cx

[sherb]

Thank-you so much for your reply - it helped keep me sane last night. You might be right about the times, she seems to have very specific windows when she can sleep, but she is such an active baby, it is hard to tell exactly when they are (and of course, they change as she gets older).  I think the sleep window is also extremely small when she is this OT. I do carry her a lot, I tried the sling yesterday to get that catnap, the fact that it didn't work was very surprising, and tells me we really have ourselves in a mess. I got up with her 5 times last night, and she woke a few more. Another EW this am, then pooped at the start of naptime so it was an hour after that getting her down for morning nap, which usually is no problem to get. Yikes.  However, perhaps you are right and I am being too stubborn. If she is really too OT to sleep, maybe it is better to put her in the carrier and get her down the next moment I have, rather than insist that we go until she falls asleep, once I put her down. 

She is on medication for her reflux, it is as under control as we can get it.  If that is getting in the way of her sleep, I really don't know what to do.  She also appears to have a dairy sensitivity. The doctor is skeptical, as it is rare in bf babes, but I feel quite convinced for a number of reasons. And regardless, whether it is dairy or not, something causes nasty bouts of gas that do wake her at night. And, of course, she is teething and will be for the next few months.  As I am writing this, our situation is starting to sound a bit hopeless.  Thankfully none of her issues are life threatening etc, just troublesome enough to mess with her comfort and, therefore, her sleep.

Thanks so much for your advice and support!  I'm sure there is no real answer (well, no easy answer) but it helps even to just get it out. 

[clazzat]

(((hugs))) sorry your night was so bad.  My dd's sleep window was tiny - about 30 seconds, as far as I could see! - so I got it wrong time and time again.  I have to say what worked for us was set nap times - it took a little while, but she got used to being sleepy at the 'right' time and therefore started to fall asleep almost instantly.

Have you tried different reflux meds?  My lo was fine on gaviscon, but I know several who had to try a couple of different things before they found the one that worked.  One thing to bear in mind is that gaviscon is not an antacid - it merely thickens the feed to stop it coming back up.  If it is still coming back up, even thickened, it could be causing pain and she might need an antacid such as Zantac.

I do know one fully bf'ed baby who was milk intolerant so it's not impossible.  Have you given up dairy in your diet?  The little boy I know could have goat's milk/cheese, so you could maybe have a trial period of those to see if it helps.

As for the teething, you can give calpol every night - a doctor friend of mine has told me that paracetamol has no side effects, so while you think she is teething you should just give it to her before she goes to bed.  We did for ages, and I really think it helped.

Hope your day gets better.  I'm still here for hugs and support when you need them.
Cx

[~ Vik ~]

Hi! Just wanted to send you a few hugs too I'm sorry you and your lo are having a rough go!

I wanted to let you know too that my ds is ebf and severely allergic to dairy (hives) so it is definitely possible. The few times we had to supplement with formula at the beginning he had AWFUL nights. He also has eczema and nothing we did would clear it up. We didn't make the connection until we started solids. I gave him a cereal that was just add water and he broke out in hives. Cutting out dairy is a pain, but once you realize what you can/can't eat it gets easier. I found that I was making a lot more from scratch which is healthier anyway. And I found a lot of dairy free items in the organic section of my grocery store too. If you're going to cut dairy, make sure you do it for at least 3 weeks, because it can take that long to get out of both your systems and see any results.

I also have been giving baby Tylenol nearly every day for weeks... My doc said no problem!

Good luck, and I'll be sending sleep vibes your way
Vikki

[sherb]

OK, we'll definitely try some tylenol/paracemetol tonight.

I have given up dairy, for several months. The hard part is that I live in France, it is not the easiest place to avoid dairy altogether! Invariably something buttery or creamy slips under the radar, as it has in the past week, and my husband and I feel she reacts to it.  I do have doubts though, as our dr's are skeptical, so I often start to doubt myself. I know how desperate parents like me can be for a reason for their child's problems. Still, we have had a lot of indications that she really does have trouble with dairy. It's good to get confirmation that just because it isn't common, doesn't mean our daughter doesn't suffer from this problem. 

She is on an acid inhibitor, rather than gaviscon.  She still throws up, but it does seem to make things better. You are right though, I have no idea if it is still bothering her.  I'll speak to the dr about it next time we see him.

Having said all that, I am really sure all of these problems contribute to her sleep troubles, but that she is also OT and that we have really failed with her schedule.  I am curious, clazzat, how you selected the set times for your daughter's naps, to make sure you didn't end up with horribly OT baby?  I'm concerned I'll get the times wrong, so far I don't feel like I have a great track record for making good decisions with my daughter's sleep schedule.

I couldn't get an afternoon nap from her again today. She closed her eyes, relaxed but wouldn't fully fall asleep and as soon as I tried to put her down, she was up. My husband ended up carrying her in the backpack and she slept for 1h15min that way. Not at all ideal but at least she got some sleep, and i got a break.  Hopefully tonight will be at least a bit better, and we find a schedule that works for her soon.  Thanks so much again!

[clazzat]

I must confess that the set times for her naps were largely dictated by dd1's activities and lunchtime nap.  Our routine is up at 6, sleep 9.15-9.45, sleep 12.30-2.30/2.45, bath at 6, bed 6.30 - it has been this for about 3 months now (she's 10 months).  She normally sleeps uninterrupted until about 4.30/5 when I feed her and we go back to sleep until 6 - she has slept till 6 twice in the last week.

If you want to try set times, I would look up the average A times for her age and set naps according to that.  In my personal experience, a short morning nap and a long lunchtime nap has worked really well for both my dds but I know that some find a long morning nap and short pm better.  Bear in mind, if you do have a short am nap it needs to be followed by a shorter A.  It can also take a week or so to set their body clock - personally I would have a couple of days of APing to make sure she is not OT to start with, and then stick with the schedule that you have decided for at least a week.

Have you propped up the head of her bed to see if that helps any?  If she is happier sleeping in the backpack it might be that being upright has helped her which could be an indication that her reflux is bothering her.  Teething can make it worse, and also as they get older sometimes their med needs can change.

[sherb]

You know, I really wasn't considering reflux as the problem, because she is on medication. However, after posting back and forth with you, I have been reflecting on it and am seriously wondering if you might be right!  She has "silent" reflux - so she does spit up but not a lot.  It mostly ends up in her upper respiratory tract or just irritating her esophagus, so it is hard for us to know if it is flaring up. However, I wonder if it could explain a lot. For example:

I nurse her before sleep.  The past several days, she appears to be asleep, but then gets fussy and struggles to sit up.  I interpreted this as "she is overtired and fighting sleep".  But I suppose it also could be "she was falling asleep but then started to feel uncomfortable so sat up to feel better".  Hmmm. She does the same thing when I put her down - she immediately cries and sits up, and if I leave her she repeatedly lies down and then sits again. I thought she was fighting sleep, but maybe she doesn't feel good when she lies down? Oh dear.  This morning she was very tired, I tried not to nurse her too much, she seemed to fall asleep but then struggled upright, and fell asleep like that, in my arms.  If you imagine she is struggling with reflux again, it could make sense.  I thought this was supposed to get better by 8 months!?

Anyhow, thanks so much, I am going to keep following this, because she has gone through phases (even as recently as last week) when she has no problem going to sleep when I put her down.  I think I'll try to keep moving her milk feeding further from sleep time, see if that helps.  Many thanks again for brainstorming with me, it has helped a great deal!

[clazzat]

Sometimes talking it through is all it takes.  I expected my dd to grow out of her reflux when she was sitting and on solids as hers wasn't very serious, but it did take a few more months - we kept trying to cut down her gaviscon and every time it caused problems.  Might be a good idea to move her feed back a bit so that she has some more time to digest before she lies down.

Keep me posted as to how you get on.
Cx

[sherb]

We saw a Dr yesterday afternoon. She gave us Motillium and Gaviscon in addition to the acid inhibitor my daughter is already taking. I also am trying to feed her further from sleep times. Last night we had a hard time getting her down, but she only woke twice, briefly, and had no long unsettled periods!  Much better!!  Today she fell asleep for both her naps, even the afternoon one, without difficulty. It may be just a lucky good day, I know, or perhaps she is just so exhausted from falling asleep too late last night, but I am quite encouraged.  If it was reflux making her uncomfortable in bed, I sure feel bad as I was really dismissing that as a possibility since she was already on reflux meds.  Will let you know if she still seems better after a few days. Many, many thanks again!  S.

[clazzat]

Glad you saw the doc and that she seems to be doing better.  Hope it wasn't just one lucky day!
Cx