EWs basically every a.m. and i'm not sure why...

[mirabels mom]

hi, liz.  how did the time change treat you?  it isn't too much fun, is it?

i have been limiting daytime sleep to 3 hours (or even a little less) and making sure she gets 3.5 hours A time before bed.  it seems to help the EWs a bit.  Yesterday, she had an 1h15m nap in the a.m. (i woke her) and 1h30mish nap in the p.m.  she was really fussy so we put her down at 7:15pm - she had 3h15m A time before bed.  she woke for the day at 5:40am.  she hasn't been her usually very happy self - she is a little more fussy and cranky.

lately, when she wakes btwn 5-5:30am, i give her 20 minutes to fall back asleep, which she has a hard time doing.  then i give her a 4oz bottle and she'll fall back to sleep eventually - after being up 45 minutes or so.  i just have no idea if doing this is going to help her sleep through that early wake up or create an early waking habit - i fear the latter.  so i decided that if she wakes at 5:30am or after, i'll keep her in her crib until 6am but i won't feed her until i get her up.  then naptime will start around 9:15-9:30am.  somehow this seems like a better strategy and maybe she'll start sleeping a bit later (ideally we'd love a 7:30pm/6:30am night schedule).   

what do you suggest at this point?

thanks!

[*Liz*]

Any teeth coming to cause trouble - EWs and fussiness is often teeth at this age.

[mirabels mom]

nothing that i can see in the way of teeth yet (still have a toothless grin and no signs of impending breakthroughs!).  any other thoughts?

liz, congratulations on #2!!! 

[*Liz*]

When have you been officially starting to time the first A from? We perhaps need to think about pushing the nap back as best as we can to try and get rid of the EW.

What is your target awake time?

How long can you leave her in the crib for? I used to be able to manage a good hour at that age - and usually get 30 mins or so now as well.

Time change was a week ago for me now and it too me 3 days to push him back - so not too bad at all. Thanks for the congrats  .

[mirabels mom]

well, i start the A time from when she will finally get up for the day when she does return to sleep - so 7amish.  usually her first nap starts 10/10:15am.  it was more like 10:30 (i like a 3.5 A time in the a.m.) but her p.m. nap was getting too late so i moved her first nap back a bit.

i can leave her in the crib for 30/40 minutes, longer if i feed her.

i'm just at a loss of what to do.  should i do what i can to get her to sleep in that 5am/6am hour, then push that first nap to closer to 11am? 

[*Liz*]

So you essentially use A time - so if she wakes at 5am but goes back to sleep and wakes at 7am you would do a 10am nap? What would you do if she didn't go back to sleep?

I don't think she will handle 4hrs A time yet, especially after an EW so wouldn't dream of moving the nap to 11am. That is what time I put my 14mth old down today after a bit of an EW for only 1 nap. Definately will just cause OT EW.

I suspect the issue might be that last A time - could we perhaps try sticking at 3hrs and no more for a few days and see if it improves? The vast majority of EWs are due to being a touch OT at bedtime. I don't think she is OT throughout the day as the naps are fine. I solved a run of EWs by doing this at about the same age. I had assumed he needed a longer A at the end of the day when actually he didn't, and cutting to 3hrs helped. Especially since she isn't really a 2hr napper.

I must say though EWs are very common at this age through until they complete the 2-1 - just as they nap refuse and become very prone to OT.

[~Sarah~]

Hi-
Just wanted to jump in here and follow along.  I have DS who is just 8 months.  We have been battling cold and flu, time change, teething and EW, Plus he is very active in bed and bangs into his crib rails in the night.

I think what I am learning from you is I am trying to make him sleep too much! 

Our EASY kind of looks like this (ideally in my head and we get pretty close most days)

EW 530-630 depends on day, but 5 out of 7 are at this time

E 700 6-8 oz formula
A change diaper talk in bed with Dad
E 745 banana puree/cereal
A floor time
S 900-1030 or 1100
E 1100 6-8 oz
E 1130-1200 Veggie puree/puffs or cheerios
A floor time or walk outside
S 200-300 or if I can get him to sleep longer I do-I try most days at least for 2 hours nap
E 300 6-8 oz
A floor or help Mom make dinner
E 5-530 meat/vegie puree with puffs or O's
E 600 start 8 oz bottle
A Bath at about 615
S Finish bottle, story and asleep between 7-730

I am wondering if his restless sleep is because he is geting too much during the day?  It seems like pushing his nap past 9am at this time may be hard because he is really tired then. I can kind of get him to stay up for about 15 extra minutes or so.  I guess also, I am not counting EW time in am because he really is not asleep, but really not awake, kind of babbling with eyes closed.  He has no problem with 3+ hours A after morning nap. 
Any thoughts would be great!
Thanks and good luck mirabels mom

[mirabels mom]

hey, liz.  i'm baaaack...

we are heading into 10 months of age now and it is very obvious that she doesn't need as much sleep as she used to.  to battle EWs i was trying to manage her daytime sleep and frankly i was getting a very grumpy baby during the day, so i stepped away for a few weeks and let her do her thing.  basically, we are averaging around 3h - 3h15 A time during the day. 

1 day a week she sleeps 10h45m straight through the night - so 7pm - 5:45am.  that works for us - she is very happy when she sleeps through the night like this and can do 3.5h A time easily.  1 day every couple of weeks we'll get 11h30m or 12h straight.  the other days of the week she wakes at 4:30 - 5amish - so she sleeps 9.5-10 hours.  i'll go in and give her a paci.  if she hasn't fallen back asleep within 20-30 minutes, i give her 4oz and change her diaper.  she'll usually fall back asleep for another 45 minutes - 1h15m - after being up 45 minutes - 1 hour.

honestly, our days are the same, so i have no idea how to DEAL.  i am hoping that this is just a very long phase and that when we get down to 1 nap things will get better.  but we are NOWHERE near getting to one nap yet - she only had a 20 minute pm nap one day last weekend (we were out and about) and that night we had 4 NWs.  it was a disaster.

this is our current schedule if she sleeps through to 5:45am:

5:45am wake
6am bottle
7:30/8am solids
9:30am - 11am nap (sometimes i give her a bottle before her nap if she doesn't eat a good breakfast)
12pm solids
2pm bottle
2:15pm - 3:45pmish nap
5pm dinner
6:45 bottle
7pm bed

this is our schedule if she has an EW and goes back to sleep:

5:30am 4oz bottle
7/7:15am wake
7:15am 4 oz bottle
8:30am solids
10 - 11:15ish nap (again she sometimes gets a bottle before nap)
12 solids
2:15 bottle
2:30-3:45/4pm nap
5pm dinner
6:45pm bottle
7pm bed

[*Liz*]

What happens when she has the EWs - does she have a crib party or have a big cry?

[mirabels mom]

i'd say 3/4 of the time she fusses/cries.  since she has learned to sit from a lying down position, the past couple of mornings she is sitting up and laughing at the crack of dawn.

[*Liz*]

I suspect you are right and she is ready to slowly cut her day sleep.

First step is usually to start waking from the am nap after 1 hr. A time is usually about 3hrs first thing, then 3-3.5hrs after the 1 hour nap, then 3.5hrs to bed after a good nap, slightly less if it is shorter.

[mirabels mom]

just wanted to check in, liz.

we have had a few good mornings the past few days - asleep at 7pm, sleeps through to 5:45am.  i was going to cut her a.m. nap but she doesn't do well if we cut it short - she is grumpy, and i don't like her to be grumpy!  so we've limited the p.m. nap and woken her by 3:40pm or so - so she gets 3h15-20m A time before bed.  that seemed to work for a few days.  although this a.m. she was awake at 5am for the first time in almost a week.  ugh.  i gave her a bottle at 5:45am and left her in her crib, and she fell back asleep at some point and slept until 7:15am.

i am really hesitant to just get her up at 6 if she has been up since 5, because she is usually crabby all day.  i'm just wondering if having her go back to sleep after being up for 45 minutes or so, while making her happier, is reinforcing the habit?  what do you think, liz.

i'm just not convinced that she is ready for 3.5h A time yet.  i think we are in a weird limbo right now with her sleep (along with developmental things happening, working on mama and dada, pulling herself to standing, going from laying down to sitting. working on crawling).  my thoughts were maybe we should go with it another month and try to cut her day sleep again and see if that helps. 

sigh. 

[*Liz*]

I bet all it is is a case of getting the A time right after a shortened pm nap - how long has that nap been?

I ended up doing a long am nap and short pm nap as my DS wouldn't comply with the short am nap beyond cutting it to 1 hr - so I went back. It does work just fine  . I ended up finding the final A to be shorter than I thought.

An early feed will possibily re-enforce the habit TBH. But it is up to you whether you feel it is worth a try or not. I gave J a 5am ish feed until 11 mths, and eliminated once he started sleeping until 6am without waking. Once he was doing that himself I banned feeds at 5am, as I figured there was a difference between feeding a hungry baby and feeding them back to sleep IYSWIM?

I think following this sort of a plan for a month or so sounds like a good idea 

[mirabels mom]

thanks, liz.  i just wish i could find a routine and enjoy it for more than a month.

that afternoon nap is about 1h15m usually.  so not that short.  the few evenings we did 3h20m A time after that nap she slept until 5:45am, which is good for us.

today has been a disaster.  she woke up at 5:20amish - after sleeping 10h20m there is no way she'll go back down.  got her up at 6am.  by 8:40 she could barely keep her eyes open, so i put her down (begrudgingly) at 8:45.  and she slept for...45 MINUTES.  WTH?  seriously, we haven't had a 45 minute nap in forever...and she was SO TIRED.  shrug.  DH thinks a big cause of this is developmental, and i suppose he is right.  she LOVES to go from lying down to sitting up and does it in her crib all of the time before and after (and today, during) naps.  plus, she is *this* close to crawling - actually does crawl 2-3 paces before sitting back up. 

so, today she woke up from a 45 minute nap at 9:30am, which is when she is supposed to go down for her nap.  

today will either be a 3 nap day or a very early bedtime day.  or maybe both.  i can't remember when i've had a day go THIS bad!  LOL.

[*Liz*]

Hopefully the chaos will settle once she works out that she can crawl and stops trying to practise all the time.

10h 20 night sleep sounds like OT at bedtime to me though - perhaps that last A needs to be a touch shorter?