3rd nap through bedtime a mess...

[Mjaz]

Any help or ideas would be appreciated.  I'm starting to feel like I've exhausted my possibilities, so thought I'd give another post and see what you think - since I would be lost without the advice I've received here!

LO is 16 weeks, 13 weeks developmentally.  He sleeps without any props.  I have been very successful in extending his naps with the help I received on these boards.  We are working on a 3 - 3.5 hour EASY transition.

A pattern is developing, though and I'm wondering what you think.

Nap 1 - after 1:30 of A time - good nap, 1:30 - sometimes I don't even have to interfere
Nap 2 - after 1:40 of A time - good nap, 1:30-2hrs - generally have to do shh/pat between cycles, but it's easy
Nap 3 - have tried 1:20, 1:30, 1:40 and 1:45 of A time - always a 30 min. nap, followed by OT monster, not wanting to go back to sleep no matter what
Catnap - nonexistent unless I put him in the car and drive around

Because the afternoon gets sooo wonky, he has been going to bed around 6pm.  NWs twice and then an EW around 5.

Questions: 
1) do LOs typically go longer or shorter on A time as the day progresses? 
2) how important in a 12 hour night?  what it my LO only needs 10-11?  can I adjust for that?  might that get rid of the 5am wake?
3) why when he naps less and is OT does he STTN and when he's well rested and has had good naps, he has NWs? 

Plllleeeeassee heelllpppp meee!  I am at my wits end.  I don't know what else to try anymore and I'm so so so tired I'm losing the will to care about his EASY....

Melinda

[Tweakster]

Hi there, hugs hun, it's a hard age for napping, it's very developmental they are still learning. 

Could you post your whole day with feeds etc. I wonder if that 3rd nap is actually UT and then he's OT by bedtime...?  It would help to see his whole day.  He might be transitioning early to the 4 hr EASY.  I assume you have likely read this link but I will post anyway:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

Finn always had his morning A as shortest for the longest time, it was like 1/2 hr to 20 mins shorter.  And then when we were dropping the CN I managed to increase it but his middle one would not increase.  It took time but his A's have pretty much balanced out with his longest from 2nd nap to bedtime. 

He's an 11 hr/night sleeper at most - I don't think he has ever done 12 hrs consecutively.  So yes it is possible that your LO only needs/wants 11 hours.  I think 10 hr/night would cause you major OT in no time though so I would aim for no more than a 13 hour day.

It could be that your LO is ready to increase his A time and that is why he's waking at night.  If he's getting too much day sleep and not enough play time he will look for it at night.  He might deal with his OT on bad nap days by catching up at night, Finn never does.  He just lets the OT accumulate until I intervene lol. 

I would suspect that the NW are either OT or part of his 4 month growth spurt (do you think he has hit that yet? is he hungrier?).  Actually 11 hour nights are not considered EW so 6 p.m. - 5 a.m. is good.  Not so good to be getting up at 5 but once he is doing good naps you can start to push your whole day forward and get him to a later bedtime/later wake time.

Big hugs and let's see the EASY and see what needs tweaking.

[Mjaz]

Thank you Wendy!!! 

Here is his day thus far (this is a pretty typical day)  We are transitioning to a 3.5 EASY as I wonder if that's the issue, but then this afternoon he didn't make it!  I have read that link and I don't think he can be awake for 2 hrs. without getting OT, so I'm trying to go to a 3.5

Awake at 6:45am
E- 7
A- total of 1:40
S- 8:25 (slept 30 min. - then went back for another 30 after 30 min. of shhh/pat - very atypical -this is usually the best nap)
A- 30 minutes

E- 10:30
A - total of 1:30
S - 11:30 (for 1:30 without any intervention - yay!)
A - 30 minutes

E- 2pm
A- total of 1:40
S- 2:40 - 3:40 - woke screaming and rooting - hungry???  would not go back to sleep -tried for 20 min.
A- 20 min.

E- 4pm

My plan is to watch his cues and try for the catnap around 5:20 - but generally he fights it like crazy.  After 45 minutes or so we have been giving up and putting him to bed around 6-6:30.  If I get a nap, he can go to bed closer to 7:30-8 which would be a 13 hour day. 

He is a VERY hungry little boy.  I've actually posted about it on the Feed boards and called his pediatrician, b/c I just can't believe it.  I feel like he's in a constant growth spurt - ha ha.  Honestly, I don't know about whether he is in a GS or not b/c he's been doing this for the last few weeks.  He eats 6 oz. at every feed, and then in the middle of the night he can take up to 10!  I've tried to give him more food during the day, but it is having a minimal impact on his night.

THANK YOU! 

[Mjaz]

Wendy,
Just to update you on the afternoon/evening - it was par for the course! (unfortunately)

He woke up from 3rd nap at 3:40 and was looking very sleepy an hour later (yawns, fussing - tried moving him, yawn, crying) so I tried to put him down for a nap.  No go.  Tried everything for 45 minutes.  Then my husband tried taking him for a drive, but even that didn't work - he just screamed.  He did not seem OT, just wanting to be up.  He went for 3 hours and 20 minutes before going to bed at 7pm. 

He woke at 2am, took a full feed.  Woke at 5:15, I got him back to sleep.  Up at 6:15am.

Thanks!
Melinda

[kikoz]

Hi there, my lo does exactly the same in the afternoons! it gets soooo tiring! she wants to stay up and she wants to sleep all at the same time! it can really gets confusing, and when it gets to her feeding time she s already so OT that sh refuses to eat! LOL

I decided to follow her cues, sometimes they scream and shout because they DONT want to sleep!. I gave her an earlier feed today and she took it and although her nap was very short and she refused CN, her A time was happy!

trial and error and following cues is best till you figure it out then you can adjust EASY accordingly... i was trying so hard to stick to EASY but it was simply not working and more diruptive...

that s from my experience, i m no expert but hope that helped!

get some extra sleep you ll feel better too good luck

[Tweakster]

Hi there Melinda, I think he's in OT cycle already and 3 hr 20 min A is way too long for him, especially on short naps.  They often fool us by not seeming tired but they are in fact so OT they have a second wind and get hyper.  I never did a 3.5 hr EASY but I had a look on the link and it has 3 long naps of 1.5 hrs with no CN.  Have you tried pushing his first A to get a better nap? Even just 5 mins every 3 days. Have you seen this link as well, it has an easier transition to the 4 hr EASY:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=120362.30

30 min naps at this age can be hard to diagnose.  Most often they are OT but also there is the element of development.  So he could be going down at the right time for the nap but just can't transition.  That is where shh/pat comes in and any other techniques to extend naps.  For us weeks 12 - 20 were just a real developmental nap training period and I almost had to extend every single nap.  I sat in his room and just helped him through the transitions.  There were times my back was broken from leaning in the crib, my mouth was dry and throat hoarse from shushing, and I resorted to using the swing for a lot of naps.  In the end he just grew out of it.

I honestly think the feeds at night are pretty normal and standard at his age and especially since he was premie and is catching up.  If he's a hungry kid there is a reason and I think you need to feed him.  The EW is likely hunger but there could be an element of OT there too.  If you can get him back down without feeding great, but I wouldn't worry about him still eating at that time at this stage.

While he's in OT and doing short naps I think sticking to the 12 hour day is going to help combat any further OT.  Don't be afraid of early bedtime.

Naps are your key to this transition.  If you can get him sleeping better in the day he will likely do better at night and then you can start to move him towards the 4 hr EASY.  The 4 hr EASY has 2x 1.5 hr naps and a CN so it might suit him better if he is a nap fighter.  The less naps to fight the better.  Life has gotten infinitely better since Finn has been on 2 naps.  

[Mjaz]

Hi Wendy,
THANK YOU for your insight.  He can definitely take three 1:30 naps, but if he's up at 5am, then without a catnap he's going to bed at 5pm-ish.

He had 3 great naps yesterday AND a catnap (woo-hoo!).  Went to bed at 7:45, but did the same exact NW at 2am and 5am.

Today he was up at 5am again, but had 3 pretty solid naps with no intervention from me which I feel is a huge, huge success:  1:45, 2:15 (I wasn't watching the clock!) and 1:15.  But now it's 4:30 and he's tired and I don't know what to do - try for a catnap or put him to bed at 4:30???

I know 3:20 is wayyy tooo long of an A time, but like I said, I'm not sure what to do when the EW makes his day so early - bedtime would have to be very very early.

I haven't been able to move him to the 4 hr. EASY because his A time is still around 1:30-1:40 most times - I guess b/c he was 3 weeks early.  So I thought I would try 3.5...

What do you think - put him to bed super early - even if it's 4:30-5pm?  I will look at the 3.5 hour EASY and see if maybe I can tweak what I'm doing.

I soooo appreciate your help!
Melinda

[Mjaz]

So - a 3.5 hr. EASY starting at 5am would look like this: I obviously don't want him to wake at 5, nor do I want him to go to bed at 5, so how would I start pushing bedtime back?  Thank you!

E:  5am wake up and feed
A:  5:30-6:30
S:  6:30-8
A:  8-8:30

E: 8:30
A: 9-10
S: 10-11:30
A: 11:30-12

E: 12
A: 12:30-1:30
S:  1:30-3
A:  3-3:30

E: 3:30
A: 4-5
S: 5 (asleep for night)

[Tweakster]

Hi there Melinda, there are really 2 ways to go about it.  One is to do everything to resettle him at that 5 waking and start from when he wakes - you treat as a NW.  Or yes you could put him to bed at 5 to get him out of OT and then work on pushing your day out once he's less tired.  At his age I suspect you would have better luck resettling at 5 and starting the day around 6:30 or 7 or when he wakes. 

I don't really have any experience with a 3.5 hr EASY and it doesn't look like something that would have worked for Finn at all.  What I did during that time period with him was work really really hard at extending his naps and sneaking in extra naps if I had to.  We had a lot of 30 min naps. I wanted to start the day at 7 but we never ever got there.  So I settled for 6 and anything before 6 I treated as NW and then fed him and put him back down, with rocking or sometimes the swing, quite often I would sleep with him on me in the recliner chair in his room.  Yes, we did a lot of APOP but we eliminated the bad habits with sleep training when he was more ready for it.

We had the 1 - 2 a.m waking and the 5 a.m. waking for ages and it was just that he was legitimately hungry.  We always let him lead his feeding, especially because he is a reflux kid, and he just gave up the 1 - 2 a.m. on his own, around 4.5 mths.

[Mjaz]

Hi Wendy,
Thanks again for your advice and guidance. I've decided the 3.5 hour EASY was making me crazy - I'm going to stick to 3 until LO can either nap for 2 hours or stay awake for 2 hours.  I've been putting him to bed at 6 these last couple of days and he's been waking around 10, 2, and then at 6 for good.  So - looks like he's waking to eat.  Which is a relief, because I really thought his wakings were getting habitual.  I'm glad he seems to be able to go to 6 now...as the 5am waking was posing a lot of issues!

I've also let go of trying to get him to catnap in his crib.  He's doing great - no props - falling asleep awake at every other time of the day - but for some reason the catnap drives him crazy.  So yesterday I just held him and let him sleep for 40 minutes.  It worked really well and it let me rest a bit, too. 

Thanks again!
Melinda (btw, Finn was one of my favorite names and top choices - but my husband vetoed it - which I guess was fair b/c I vetoed just about all of his names - ha ha)

[Tweakster]

Hi there Melinda, no worries.  It's really hard in the first 4 months I would say...it got easier as time went on and we only had our first 'perfect' nap day at 7.5 mths.  Since your LO is a good napper already and can go down on his own, you probably won't have to wait as long as I did :-)

Finn started fighting his CN at around 5 mths, even before I think.  We always APOP'd the CN, it was swing, or rocking, or car - whatever would work.  It's fine because that nap is going to go and when he's doing more A time, more mobile i.e. starting rolling and doing lots of tummy time, and only doing 2x 1.5 hr naps he might like the CN :-)  I too enjoyed the CN with Finn falling asleep on me, he rarely does that anymore - they grow so fast.  So it is nice to enjoy it while you can.  And yes, it allows you some downtime which is much needed! 

6 - 6 with 2 wakings to eat is pretty stellar at his age :-)  You're doing great!!!