Author Topic: Almost 1 year old still a Night-time disaster!!  (Read 1305 times)

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Offline sherb

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Almost 1 year old still a Night-time disaster!!
« on: October 09, 2009, 09:01:44 am »
I have a 11.5 month old daughter who has never been a good nighttime sleeper. I am getting desperate for some insight - last night she was awake for 4 hours!! Though this is not typical, it was not so outrageous that we found it surprising.  Just a bit of background - she has had quite a bad case of "silent" reflux that caused congestion, sometimes vomiting and almost certainly pain and discomfort since she was born.  I would not say it is gone - she had 2 huge vomiting sessions just last week (but was not sick), but I will say it is better and her breathing is better when she sleeps.  I am willing to accept blame for all kinds of AP that we have surely used to deal with this, but I do also thing that these reflux flare-ups have been a big part of our problem, we have had her doing quite well several times but just never for long enough for her really to settle into a good sleep pattern.

Another strange thing about her, is that she has been doing just one nap/day for over a month now, usually for 3 hours.  It had become nearly impossible to get her to take 2 naps, as we would end up having her sleep from 10:30 to 11:30 (when I would wake her to protect the 2nd nap) then I would be lucky to get her down again by 3, when she would usually wake after 45 minutes.  Then, she wouldn't go down again until 7:30 or 8.  She pretty consistently naps for 3 hours if we put her down at 11:30.  The trouble is that I think she is not quite ready for this (the typical too old for 2 naps, too young for 1 problem).  She wakes between 2 and 2:30, then can't make it to a reasonable bedtime.  By the time I get my son from school, get the kids home, feed them etc, I can't possible get her to bed before 6, usually 6:30.  She is an energetic, alert baby. She almost never falls asleep in her stroller, the carrier or even the car, so getting a cat nap that way is out of the question. 

She is breastfed and doing OK on solids (though doesn't eat dairy - so most of her fat and protein is still coming from me.  She doesn't like it and I think still has a hard time digesting the proteins).  She has been able to fall asleep on her own since she was 4 months old, though often won't do it. I am frustrated to admit that I have no idea when I put her down whether she'll go to sleep or scream.  So, here is her routine, when we are doing well.

up 7:30 to 8am

If she has not been up all night she will nurse when she wakes, then about 45 minutes later will have a small breakfast of some cheerios or bread and fruit puree. If she is up frequently at night, she will refuse all milk and food for at least 2 hours.

Morning A time is usually playing at home or at the babysitter. Sometimes a short walk outside.

10:15 to 10:30 - lunch (solids).  Pasta with peas, and meat or egg. Fruit puree.  Milk in a cup.  This is one of 2 times of day that she is likely to eat a fairly large meal.

11:30 to sleep at home or at babysitter. At the babysitter, she just puts her in bed with her babydoll and a bit of white noise and music. She mantra cries for 2 min or less and falls asleep. At home, she is happy to make Mommy help her, and she nurses for 5 or 10 mins then I put her down asleep or slightly awake and she goes to sleep.  Most days she sleeps at least 2.5, usually 3 hours.

3:00 to 3:30 bf - usually both sides, and snack of fruit, baby biscuit, bread, carrot, other finger foods.

Afternoon A time is usually busy, playing in the outside with big brother, going to the library, visiting friends.  We are often rushing to get back to get her dinner by 6 at the absolute latest, though I feel she is really hungry by 5:30. Any tips on how to balance the 2 kids schedules are also welcome!  I have more flexibility to change things in the earlier part of the day.

5:30 to 6:00 dinner - this is usually her biggest meal of the day.  We try more and more to give her what we are eating to start as finger food, then finish with baby cereal mixed with breast milk to make sure she is full.

Sometimes a quick bath (though we often do this during morning A time as she really loves it and the evenings are already jam packed).  The we start the bed time routine by 6:30 at the latest. We have a bedtime music playlist, jammies on, quiet time on bed with big brother, stories, into sleep bag, kisses from Daddy and big brother, sleep time lullabies on, nursing with Mommy.  We drag it out a bit if she had a long nap and is doing well, or we really rush it otherwise.  She is in bed by 7 at the latest.  Usually, unless I have really pushed the bedtime really too late, she falls asleep fairly quickly.  So morning A time is 3.5 to 4 hours.  Evening A time is variable, from 4 to 4.5 hours, but as much as 5.5 hours (if she has a bad nap for some reason, for example). 

It is the nighttime that really goes sideways. First, it is not uncommon for her to wake 45 min after going down, and will almost never self-soothe at that time.  She has a 10 to 11pm wake up that is programmed and REALLY hard to get rid of. My husband and I both think this waking is key. We have tried PU/PD if she is screaming but otherwise just also letting her cry (as it usually is a mantra cry), and just soothing without nursing to get her past this. It has worked several times, and within a few days we get her to the point where she is only waking once at 5am.  But inevitably that 10 to 11pm waking comes back. We know when she wakes and doesn't calm at that time, it will be a rough night. Last night it was the 4 hour marathon. I admit, I went to her to try nursing her so perhaps we are at the point that she knows there is always a chance that she'll get Mommy's milk?  My husband went in to try calming her instead and she screamed so hard that she could hardly breathe, and she was sobbing for nearly 10 min after I went to her!  We did give her some advil in case she was in pain (but there was no indication of that) and it didn't help.  Other times she is not up long each time, but is waking every 1 - 2 hours.  She only once ever skipped the 5am feeding, she always wakes at that time, no matter what else has happened in the night. She also almost always wakes between 7:30 and 8, no matter what happens in the night.  This time we think her sleep is off because she was sick earlier in the week, but we also recognise that something will always come up, and that until she is consistently sleeping well, this is just going to keep happening. I never thought I'd end up here. After a lot of work (thankfully successfully!) getting my son to sleep well (he's a champion now!) I was on it from an early age. I never anticipated the horrible reflux and the lasting impact on our lives.

Sorry for the book. I know that these sleep problems are all-encompassing for the parent going through them, but the rest of the world does go on ;) I appreciate any help at all, we really  need a plan!

OK, just a few more answers to the important questions I saw in the "read this first" post.

She doesn't really have a "lovey", though there is a doll in her bed and she definitely plays with that while falling asleep, on those rare good days that she does it herself.

When I nurse her, and she is hungry, she feeds quickly but on both sides (i.e. those blissful nights when she only wakes once, or in the afternoon after her nap). Otherwise, she sucks and takes a little I'm sure, but it is clearly for comfort. I would say she nurses properly twice/day.  I do nurse her for comfort when she wakes at night (so I leave her to go back to sleep on her own until she really starts crying, then I go in and nurse her).  She might be teething, but I don't think this is the primary problem, as this has been happening both when she is teething and when she is not.

Wow, this is long. I hope it is enough.  BIG thanks for any insight at all.







lilac83

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Re: Almost 1 year old still a Night-time disaster!!
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2009, 02:12:20 am »
Hi -

First of all, I have to ask, have you spoken to her dr about the reflux/needing to increase meds? I'm assuming this is one of the first things you would have done, but just wanted to throw it out there. :)

That waking between 10-11pm is OT. Has she always been a bit of a low sleep needs baby? Since you said she's been on 1 nap for over a month, I would suggest starting to move that nap closer to the middle of the day. So for a week, move it up to 11:45am. Then move it up to 12pm. In order for that 1 nap to be successful, she should really be having at least 4.5hrs before going down. So just keep gently pushing it forward. If she starts short napping due to OT, drop the A time, wait a few days and then start pushing forward again.

The waking every 1-2hrs through the rest of the night, that says either pain/discomfort or prop issue. I would guess the prop would be breastfeeding as it sounds like you sooth her with that if she won't settle? Some weekend when you and DH feel brave (;)) I would suggest he and ONLY he settle her at night. She doesn't need feedings at night anymore. The first 2-3 nights will be hard, so if your DS has somewhere else he feels safe to sleep, you may want to send him. After that though, there should be an improvement. Possibly a set back in about a week, but push through it and you'll be on the home stretch!

Offline sherb

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Re: Almost 1 year old still a Night-time disaster!!
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2009, 15:34:09 pm »
Thanks so much!! I'll try delaying the nap first and see if/how that affects her nighttime sleep.  I guess I would call her a "low sleep need" baby. She dropped her afternoon catnap very early as well, and really is impossible to get to sleep unless she is really tired (and not overtired, which doesn't leave much of a window!).  I can't help but wonder if this isn't part of the problem. She takes a 3 hour nap/day, sleeps to 7:30 or 8am and goes to bed around 6:30.  In spite of the frequent wakings, this adds up to a lot of sleep and I wonder if she just isn't tired enough. However, I can't keep her up past 6:30 at the latest or she is terribly overtired.  Today, for some reason, she only napped for 1.5 hours.  I tried, unsuccessfully, for an hour to get her to take a late afternoon catnap. At least it reinforces to me that going back to a 2 nap schedule really isn't an option.

Many, many thanks for taking the time to read that and give you thoughts. I promise to report back and, knowing that the moderators spend a lot of time with folks like me, helping solve our desperate sleep problems, I promise to go respond to a few extra posts myself (but I'll avoid anyone trying to get a stubborn, refluxy baby to sleep. Clearly I am not an expert on that topic ;)

Oh, I have been to many doctors about the reflux, with differing opinions. They mostly just keep adding medications, none of which seems to work (while causing other unpleasant side effects). My pediatrician just told me that it is normal for babies her age to not sleep (hmmm.  really?), and that I just have to wait for her to grow out of the reflux.  I have really given up on medications at this point.



Offline Mashi

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Re: Almost 1 year old still a Night-time disaster!!
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2009, 16:46:16 pm »
One thing really really stands out in my mind - if she has reflux that medication has never worked on, and you do know that she is very sensitive to milk proteins, the biggest thing that this shouts to me is milk allergy.  Often food intolerances can cause reflux-like symptoms, and often reflux meds do NOT work because it is not gastroesophegeal reflux that is really the problem, it is the body trying to get rid of the food (ie/ milk) that is causing it upset.  SO it mimics reflux in that LO "refluxes" but it is not caused by a reflux problem, it is a food allergy symptom.

While most babies do grow out of milk allergies by about 12 months, if she has still been having and been exposed to dairy and milk (ie/ she would be getting the dairy you consume via breastmilk) then it may take longer for her to outgrow it. 

I definitely think it is something for you to think about or speak with your doctor about. If you read through the food allergies forum here there are a LOT of us who didn't have great support from doctors in diagnosing milk allergy but got lots of advice and support here from the moms who DID have great support and come armed with volumes of info.   If you decide that you want to to a trial elimination diet to see if the removal of milk from her diet helps, then it means that you too would have to eliminate all milk, dairy and products that contain milk from your diet. Generally they say that after about 14 days your breastmilk would be clear of dairy.  It also means for her, no milk, cheese, yogurt, butter, foods containing any of these or any traces of milk or milk powders, and so on.  And then, once she is dairy free, it can take a week or so before you see any improvement as her own body needs to rid itself of the dairy.

I also think that a lot of her sleep issues are very possibly linked - babies with untreated milk allergy rarely do sleep!  And as Robin said above, waking every 1-2 hours in the night is very often pain, and I wouldn't rule out that her tummy is hurting! Congestion is another sign of milk allergy!!

I do see other parts of your sleep a bit separately though, for instance --

It had become nearly impossible to get her to take 2 naps, as we would end up having her sleep from 10:30 to 11:30 (when I would wake her to protect the 2nd nap) then I would be lucky to get her down again by 3, when she would usually wake after 45 minutes. 

To me I think that this is her starting the 2-1 switch. She is the right age for it!  You are right to cut her morning nap down to preserve the second nap, but I think that the morning nap would have to be cut shorter than one hour.  Cutting it to 45 minutes and then putting her down at about 245 would probably get you a nap until 4ish, and then a week or so later, cutting it to 30 minutes would probably get you a good nap from 200 - 400ish or round about there. 

BUT you have been doing well on getting one THREE HOUR (!!) nap in on one nap days, but I also wonder if that nap is too long and cutting into her night sleep a wee bit? I know that some LOs do take massive afternoon naps when they move onto one nap, but at the same time I am in disagreement that a "low sleep needs" baby would do that... As she can only handle the 3.5 hours A time in the morning but in the evening it seems that 5.5 hours is toooo long (causing early evening OT wake ups) then moving back to two naps may be the best way to go.


HTH

Offline sherb

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Re: Almost 1 year old still a Night-time disaster!!
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2009, 10:02:35 am »
Thanks so much for the milk allergy info etc.  I actually had given up dairy- for over 6 months!  Not an easy thing to do in France.  I gave up everything, even anything prepared with any sort of dairy product. I did feel it helped her somewhat, but it never made her reflux symptoms go away or her sleep resolve. It continually improves then descends back into disaster.  I am eating some dairy again, as I felt my consumption really wasn't affecting her anymore (though I felt it did when she was younger). The doctors I have seen have also not taken this seriously as "breastfed babies generally do not have dairy sensitivity". Though my mom and I both had serious dairy sensitivities as babies (not breastfed, but it seems to me it is reasonable to imagine the proteins that pass through to my milk could have been affecting her).  We have started experimenting with yogurt a bit. She doesn't like dairy at all, so eats very little. Today and yesterday she willingly accepted a few bites of goat yogurt. She also likes a hypo-allergenic formula I have for her, and takes that when I don't have enough time or enough milk to pump for her while she is with the babysitter. It could be this is affecting her, though I haven't noticed an obvious pattern.  You have me thinking that perhaps I should just take her to an allergist to rule out other allergies though. Hmmm. I have been really cautious with her food, wheat is really the only other thing I can think of that could really be a problem in her diet (and again, I haven't noticed any obvious pattern with that).

This past week she had been taking just a short nap. I tried the 2 nap idea for a couple of days and it didn't really work. It is almost impossible to get the second nap and it feels like I am banging my head against the wall. If I manage to get the second one, she crashes right when I have to go pick her brother up from school.  Then for a few days she took just a 1hr 15 min nap.  I was very worried about OT, but her nighttime sleep was quite good! Falling asleep well, waking only once at 5am and sleeping 7pm to 8am.  Then yesterday she took a 3 hour nap, went down fine at night but then woke at 1 and would NOT go back to sleep for over 2 hours. I tried every soothing technique I could, nothing worked. There was plenty of screaming unless I let her suck constantly and I was so exhausted at the end I really felt angry with her.  She did seem to have a bit of gas (the yogurt?) and she could be teething.  I am wondering if the long nap in the day leaves her not tired enough at night, so when a bit of gas or teething wakes her, she just can't go back to sleep.  Honestly, I have no idea whether there is something wrong, or her sleep patterns are just off and really require some kind of creative solution to fix (one that I am clearly not thinking of). However, after a year of a horribly colicky baby, followed by months of terrible sleeping etc etc, I am starting to label her "difficult" and "stubborn", which really isn't good. I am starting to feel quite hopeless, and have no confidence doctors will help me with this.  Grrr.  She's in bed refusing to nap now, better get back to her.  Thanks for all your input!!



Offline knock0ut

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Re: Almost 1 year old still a Night-time disaster!!
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2009, 10:35:01 am »
Can't offer advice but have some (((((hugs)))))!  We also had a four hour marathon last night so I feel your pain.  My LO's sleep sounds so similar, although she's only 8.5 months.  She is SOOOOO inconsistent and I spend my life trying to work out what's going on! 

Some weekend when you and DH feel brave () I would suggest he and ONLY he settle her at night. She doesn't need feedings at night anymore. The first 2-3 nights will be hard .... After that though, there should be an improvement. Possibly a set back in about a week, but push through it and you'll be on the home stretch!

We did this just over a week ago and (until last night) I didn't offer any night feeds.  We thought it had worked - she has STTN 5 nights in a week - which was a miracle.  However, I now fear we have blown it, as after being awake for over 4 hours last night and me almost losing it with her, I caved and fed her to sleep in our bed - aaagh! Could this just have been a set back - and am I now back at square one?

I so KWYM re: labelling your LO.  Wouldn't it be nice to hold your head high and say - "oh she's such an angel baby"!!!

Offline sherb

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Re: Almost 1 year old still a Night-time disaster!!
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 14:05:41 pm »
Hi knockOut,

I have been thinking of you, and wondering how you are doing?  I so appreciate your response, jut havent'been on the forums in awhile. I guess I have sort of given up on trying to fix our situation. We are still back and forth, but we finally have a diagnosis for my daughter's breathing troubles (allergies), she is breathing better at night and we are down to one night waking when she is well.  Anyhow, I hope you are doing well, and are past the 4 hours nighttime marathons!  I have to say, more than a year without a decent night's sleep has been fantastic birth control. I refer to the whole situation as my daughter's (highly successful) campaign against younger siblings.



Offline knock0ut

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Re: Almost 1 year old still a Night-time disaster!!
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2009, 22:43:06 pm »
Hi Sherb - thanks for thinking of us!  I haven't been on the forums for a while either, as things seemed to be improving and we were just beginning to rejoice in our DD new found skill of STTN - then disaster hit!  She had a nasty cold followed by a bout of hand, foot and mouth virus (blisters in each place  :'() and we are now back to frequent NW's.  At least at the moment the NWs are frequent but short, which I think I prefer to few and LOOOOOOONG!  Hope things are going well for you and your LO is finally letting you get some sleep!  So glad you got a diagnosis - it must help to have a reason?

Offline knock0ut

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Re: Almost 1 year old still a Night-time disaster!!
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2009, 22:45:34 pm »
Forgot to say - I so KWYM about birth control.  Nothing like a year of sleep deprivation to put you off having more LOs altogether!  Although I do keep telling myself the next one would be an angel (do we never learn??)