19 months routine confusion

[twinmum1]

Hi I am really confused by my DD's sleep at the moment and would really appreciate any advice anyone could offer.  Until our holiday 3 weeks ago this was my twins routine:

7.00wake
12.30/45 nap
2.30/45 wake
7.30 bed, usually asleep by 8.00

DD wakes at 7 when her light on a timer comes on which has been working really well since EW problems earlier in the year.

While on holiday DD had one or two slightly shorter naps which was ok but the problem was that she took a dislike to her travel cot so I had to do WIWO for the first couple of nights to settle her at bedtime.  DD then got into the habit of taking ages to fall asleep and now cannot seem to drop off before 8.30/45pm.We have been back home for nearly 2 weeks and DD is all over the place with NWs and EWs.  It is like her body clock has set to a 8.45 bedtime as no matter what time she naps until in the afternoon e.g. 2.15 or 3.30 she still falls asleep at the same time. At least she is cheerfully cooing in her cot until she falls asleep but instead of her normal 11 hour nights she has been getting much less sleep so I think she has got increasingly overtired.  This is mixed with catching a cold and then maybe some teething.  When she wakes in the night, sometimes she wakes with a shout and cries which is why I wondered if it is her back molars coming in as these are the only teeth she hasn't got.  Other nights she has NWs lasting an hour or so while she happily chatters away or she has an EW at 5ish but then falls back to sleep (like this morning) at 6ish and I wake her at 7.30 as I do not want her to end up totally out of her routine and out of sync with DS who is still following our old routine. 

For some of her naps she has been taking over an hour to get to sleep and chatters until dropping off which is when I have let her sleep until 3.30 as I don't want her to get even more over tired. She is still napping for at least 1h30, usually 2 hours when I wake her.  We had two days when I thought she had got back on track and then another EW today (woke 5.30, back to sleep at 6.30 and I woke her at 7.30), then crying at nap time at 12.45. I am now unsure if her sleep needs have dropped and she is UT or just OT from the past few weeks. Sorry that this is a very rambled post.  I hope you can make some sense of it.  Really the main questions I have are:

1.How can I get DD back to an earlier bedtime when she just can't seem to drop off?
2.If DD has an EW and she falls back to sleep should I still be waking her at 7am to keep her on track or am I right to give her an extra 30 min sleep to hold off OT?
3.Is it time to cap her nap or have it later in the day? Or should I be letting her sleep as long as she wants to catch up lost sleep?
4. Is it possible that DD could be getting her last molars already or is it way too early at 19 months?

Thanks for reading, I really hope that someone can help me with these questions that I can't seem to work out myself.  Cheers.

[babybarr]

I'll get Cherie to try and have a look.  She has twins.

[momtonb&ab]

Hey!  Sorry I took so ling - have a house full of guests. Hoping to get back to you more soon but wanted to suggest this:

I would give her a max of 30 mins more on ew mornings but then get her down at naptime earlier each day (say maybe 15-30 mins). And no matter how late she wakes from her nap try 15-30 mins earlier a bedtime too.

I think you are probably seeing molars for sure. It was about this age dd started with hers and our sleep needs went up for a while.  Ds got molars a bit later!

Please pop on and let me know what you think and we can chat more - should be guestless Monday

[twinmum1]

Hi thanks so much for the reply, especially when you have guests.  I am a lone parent and when when there are sleep issues I get so stressed out trying to solve them on my own.  I never know if I am making things better or worse.   Things are still erratic here.  The night before last she slept through until 6.30  but we had another EW this morning so yesterday was:

6.30 wake
12.25 nap ( she cried out a few times but didn't wake until 2.20)
8.15 sleep
5.00 awake for 40 min
7.15 woke herself for the day (light came on at 7am and didn't manage to get in her room to switch it off before it came on as I finally dropped off again at 6.45)

With her EWs at the moment she is just doing a low mantra cry every 5 min or so and then starts to grizzle a little after anything from 30min or maybe an hour.  She isn't trying to get up as she knows it isn't time until the light comes on.  She is definitely trying to get back to sleep but is having trouble which is why I am not sure if it is teeth or OT.  I put on her lullabies (on the baby monitor) when she started to grizzle and then she stopped and I think dropped off after about 10 min.  She looks wrecked this morning though - huge bags under her eyes (much like me after the past few weeks!)

I was so pleased when DD fell asleep at 8.15 as it is the earliest time in 3 weeks so had hoped it was a sign that things were getting better.  I just read your advice this morning so maybe her nap was too late and and 6 hours A time was too long.  With twins I find it really hard to make DD's naps/bedtime earlier when needed because they are in a routine where I settle them down in DS's room, put him in his cot and then we do to DD's room.  If I try to put her down early and without going through the steps with DS first, she has a total meltdown and won't settle at all.  So poor DS ends up in bed early even if he doesn't need to be.  Thank goodness he is more placid and lets me get on with it without complaining.  i am lucky that he loves his cot but still don't like to push it too much by putting him down way early.

Just more thing, do you think I should be waking her after 2 hours of nap or not? When things were on track I usually do but with her illness and OT from the short nights, I had let her sleep later for a few days? I am not sure if I should stop this now as it doesn't seem to be helping the EWings. I am kind of glad to hear that it might be her molars as at least that would explain everything.  She is chewing her hands and not drinking much milk at bedtime which is usually a teething sign but I can't get anywhere near her mouth to take a look.

Gosh, another huge post! Sorry but I seem to have a lot to say.  Probably because I had plenty of time to think about it with my lovely Sunday morning wake up call!

[momtonb&ab]

i do think it is OT......   (probably related to teeth for sure, but OT is a factor here). 

are you medicating for teeth?  that may help a bit.

also, if she is having ew i would consider making naptime earlier as it sounds like OT at nap time too with the crying out, and i would push back  bedtime to 6:30 or 7 depending on the nap/A time.  don't worry about ds, we have been through this time and again when one gets out of sync and it is better to keep them on the bedtime routine for a day or two (even if it is 'earlier) than it is to get him upset because you aren't doing things in the same order.   if it goes on longer, you could gently tweak your routine so as to put him down after her ...  but i would just start with earlier naps for both and earlier bedtimes.

i would also suggest that bedtime should be pretty consistent so i would wake for naps still - i almost ALWAYS woke them to preserve bedtime, excpet when they were really sick. 

hth

[twinmum1]

Hi Cherie, thanks for the advice.  I haven't medicated in the last couple of days because she hasn't seemed as uncomfortable.  Last night was much better - she woke up and cried out briefly at 4.45am but resettled herself and I didn't hear her again until 7.15am.  This was after a 2h30 nap which I had let her have as she was looking so tired and she fell asleep at 8.20pm.  Today I have tried to follow your advice and get her down earlier for naps and bedtime with mixed success.
7.15 wake
12.30 nap (I put her down at 12.10 but she chatted for 20min)
2.05 wake (she still looked really tired this afternoon)
8.05 sleep
I put her to bed at 7.15pm but she still took forever to wind down, singing and chatting to herself for ages.  I am pleased that she dropped off closer to 8pm again but wonder if I would need to put her down at 6.15 to get her to sleep at 7pm and that she would fight bedtime. 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for lots of sleepy vibes tonight especially around 5am.

[momtonb&ab]

sending you loads of sleepy vibes for sure.

i would try an early bedtime (6:30) to see if she will fall off earlier.   a 6 hr A time (or 5 and a bit if you go from what time you put her to bed) is still a long time if she isn't sleeping well at night yet iykwim?  5 hours after a short nap would have been way too long for my kids at that age so it may just be woth a night or two of super early bedtimes to see if you can get her back on track.

huge hugs, i know it is so hard when one is on and one is off....

[twinmum1]

Hi, the night before last DD woke at 5am again, after that long A time so you were definitely right about it being too much for her ( she dropped off at 6am, I woke her at 7:30am) but last night was great, she stirred at 5.30am but went straight back to sleep.  This was after a 2h30 nap (12.30pm to 3.00) and bedtime at 7pm, with her falling asleep at 8pm.  So I am pulling back bedtime slowly, trying to give her some early nights but not actually succeeding.  At some point will she stop this endless singing in her cot do you think?  To be honest I am a bit scared to wake her at 2 hours of nap now, because if she still stays awake until 8pm, then this won't help with her catching up her OT.  However, I can see that with such a long nap it is harder to fall asleep earlier.  Should I just be braver and wake her? She is starting to look a bit better now so we are making progress with the OT  At least I have her old falling asleep time back, even if I am having to put her to bed much earlier to achieve it.  I would just like the STTN to start getting consistent again, instead of one night on, one night off.

Thanks a lot for the support, Cherie.