2:1 Long day = short nights?

[B J]

DS is 15.5 months and we’ve been doing short am/long pm since 12 months.

With his A times, we end up with a long day 13.5 – 14 hours.  I’ve read that the day is longer with 2:1 – but is this too long?

He sleeps 10.5 hours at night on average, sometimes less.   Is the long day contributing to this?  I walk on egg shells in the morning because I never know when he’ll get up – it could be 5:20, 5:35, 5:45, 5:50.  I can’t figure out a pattern.

He is teething at the moment, but he was waking early even before the teeth started coming in.  We give him meds at bedtime and in the middle of the night.

Here is a typical day:

Wake 5:45
A 5:45 – 9:45 (4 h)
S 9:45 (20 min)
A 10:05 – 1:15 (3h 10 m)
S 1:15 – 2:45 or 3:15 (1.5 – 2 h)
A 2:45 – 6:45/7:00 (4 h +) (bed time depends on when he woke from 2nd nap)
S asleep by 7:15/7:30  (takes him about half an hour to fall asleep)

I feel like I’m stuck in a rut.  The 2 naps are still working, but he wakes up early – usually before 6:00 am.  I do the odd 1 nap day when he has a wake up of 6:00 or later, but lately, he is only napping 1.20 or 1.30 h on 1 nap.  He used to be able to do 2h+.   I’m scared to go to 1 nap if his nap isn’t long because it’s hard to do early BT during the work week.

Don’t know where to go from here….Should I stick with 2 naps until he refuses the 1st nap altogether?  Should I cap the 2nd nap?

TIA!

[bug_blues70]

following along to see what people have to say about this... I'm getting longer days and shorter nights now too.

[Grants]

Hi Tia, I think capping the second nap might be a good idea. Or maybe you could increase a bit his first A time say for 15 mins every 4 days or so until he is on a min of 4.5 hour A time, then see how he does on that and if he is managing fine then after a few weeks you can starting to cap his am nap until he can merge both naps into 1. Increasing his first A time might also help with EWs?? Does he sttn? If so he might actually handle alright a longer am A time. What do you think? I have a quite challenging DS so I have tried all those tricks before. It might work for you! ;-)

[B J]

Yes, I can try a longer first A time and I’ll cap the 2nd nap.  He does STTN, but only for 10.5 hours.   Actually, on 1 nap days, I was doing 5 hours A time!  He has no problem staying awake, but if he is OT it shows up as an EW.  He can handle a few days of 1 nap, but then I get worried that OT may be creeping in so I go back to 2 naps.  I have noticed that on 1 nap days, he does usually sleep longer at night.  His am nap is only 20 min, so I was scared to push him with too long a first A when he’s only getting a 20 min nap? 

At one point about a 1.5 months ago, I was on vacation, so I tried set nap times, with 1 nap at 11:30 each day.  I was hoping to set his body clock.  His naps went well, but then by about the 6th day, I think he got OT. 

I tried 2 days of 1 nap this weekend, which is when I got the shorter naps.  Although there could be other things at play.  He is getting his canines and molars, and he is comprehending a lot more, plus he is learning to walk.  I medicate before his naps, so I don’t know if it’s his teeth causing him to wake up.  Sometimes I am able to do WI/WO when he wakes early to get him back to sleep, but it didn’t work this weekend.  He got hysterical.  I wonder also if he’s got some SA. 

I am so analytical by nature, so not being able to figure him out is driving me crazy!  I don’t know where I’d be without BW, but I think it is also making me too obsessive!!!!

[Grants]

Tia, I won't be able to talk much now but I will come back here later. If you decide to go for longer A times in the morning I meant to cap his cat nap not the afternoon one. He is doing a 4 + A time b4 bt. They can cope better with longer A times in the morning than in the end of the day iykwim? Yes BW can make us very obsessive it is better to relax a bit otherwise you will get too stressed. I was so stressed when my lo was about 9 months. I was becoming a control freak! Lol it is not worth it though. Your lo seems pretty consistent. And the short naps are quite common on the 2 -1, apparently they eventually manage 1 long nap.  Count your blessings. He sttn every night! ;-)   

[ikesmummy]

I'm going to post my own post but wanted to let you know we seem to be in a very similar situation here. The day is starting around 5.30 (always aim for 7am in the house but never had that consistently since DS 2 stated STTN more like 6.30) and that extra hour at the beginning of the day is hell for me and also often wakes DS1 who has just started school and 7am start seems to be his natural.

we do a 20-30 min nap at 9.30 and then get him down again for 12.30-1.00 as I have a school run that I need to have him up for at 2.50 at the very latest. Like you we do some one nap days when he wakes later and normally get 2 - 2hr15mins. Really hate the early starts and worried now due to the clock changes.

Let us know if you find something that works for you and I'll do likewise.

[B J]

Grants - When you say cap the cat nap - do you mean shorten it?  He is only doing a 20 min cat nap in the am right now and I wake him.

Ikesmummy - I totally feel what you are going through. 5:30 is too early!  I've been wondering what I am going to do with the time change too! 

So far this morning has been strange. He woke at 4:25 am and chatted to himself for a bit and then things went quiet. Not sure if he fell back asleep because he started chatting again at 5:20 am.  It is 6:00 am now and I think he went back to sleep!  We'll see what time he wakes up...

[Grants]

NO! The clock change! I completly forgot about it ladies! What is it going to do with my 4am EWs? I'm not looking forward to it :-( on the positive side it might fix my lo's sleeping problems for once and for all! Lol                                                                                                                                                                                          Tia, yes , I meant to cut the cat nap. On 2 - 1 is the short nap that eventually goes, plus cutting the afternoon nap is more likely to result in OT as the day would have caught up with him then iykwim and he also does 4+ A time before BT. I did not mean to cut it now though. I think you need to increase the morning A time first and see how he does on that and then the plan is eventually to cut his cat nap slowly once you feel he is ready. When you cut the cat nap he will probably want to have his long nap earlier because he had a longer A time in the morning and less sleep for the cat nap and might even sleep for longer on his afternoon nap! This sounds promising for your lo as he sounds pretty consistent because he has been doing the same sort of routine for 3 months and he sttn!  He might be ready to move on to the next step on the 2 -1 as he is almost 16 months. This next step might mean longer A time in the morning and a 10 mins cat nap or it might mean something else but you will only find it out if you tweak things a bit. ;-) 

[ikesmummy]

How did your day go/going sorry not sure what time it is there! Not sure when people normally try cutting the catnap altogether as we aren't quite there yet with this LO and really can't remember what we did with our older son. I would have thought anything much shorter than 20 mins is barely worth doing but others may have much more wisdom to give on this!

Where is your son while you are at work Monday to Thursday? is he a fan of APOP (thinking of a 10 min nap in the buggy as an even shorter catnap or on a day when you've tried for 1 nap and it has ended up short?

[B J]

Thanks Grants.  Now I understand what you mean about capping the cat nap.

My MIL watches DS at our house.  Today he ended up waking up at 6:15 am.  Everyday I leave her instructions on when his naps should be based on his wake time.  So far she has been following my instructions, but today she decided to do her own nap routine!  I don't think she likes waking him after 20 min because he is dead asleep and hard to wake up sometimes.  He's fine once he's up though.  Well today she let him sleep 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour in the afternoon!  So today looked like this:

Wake 6:1
S 10 - 11
A 11 - 2
S 2 - 3
A 3 - 7

I'm suprised he went down for a 2nd nap after 3 hours A and a 1 hour nap.  It's hard to explain BW to her as I have to explain it to her in my mother tongue and the theories may get lost in translation.  So I don't know if I can insist that she follow my time lines.  I think she thinks I'm crazy for waking him up after 20 min. 

So I don't know where to go from here, as she may take the liberty of doing naps her way, seeing that he didn't resist the naps today.   

[Grants]

Hi ladies!  ikesmummy, the 10 mins cat nap is not a common thing iykwim. My lo is very challenging so I have tried everything with him to try and get rid of his NWs, EWs and nap refusals etc. I have been battling with it since he started on the 2-1.  (around 8 months) and nothing really works for us he still has NWs and wakes up 4 /4:30 am most days. :-( One of the strategies I used was the 15 or 10 mins cat nap.(which I do not do atm as it doesn't work for us anymore.) When he was around 8 months he started to refuse his naps so we started the normal cat nap in the morning and the long one in the afternoon after a few weeks doing it he started to refuse waking up from the morning cat nap. I forced him to wake up twice and my days were terrible because of it as he was really, really grumpy for the rest of the day. So then I started doing the long nap in the morning and cat nap in the afternoon. After awhile on that he started to refuse BT as he could carry on for ages after 30 mins cat nap in the afternoon. So then I decreased it to 20 mins and eventually 15 or 10 mins, some days I used to let him sleep 30mins if he had a bad morning nap. So you are right as I don't think this is a common thing to do.                                                                                                                   Tia, I completly understand what  you mean about your mil not getting  BW. My mil does not get  it either and in fact I know she secretly disagree with BW principles even though she never took the time to ask me about it. My mil never spent a full day with my lo but when she babysits during the day I just don't bother saying anything about naps I just ask her to take him out on the pushchair for his sleep and I don't really mention anything about wake up times etc. But in your case I think it will be hard to keep your mil doing your routine as it is hard for people to grasp BW concepts. If he keeps doing well on his 2 1 hour naps I don't think it will do any harm. Eventually he will go to one nap on his own time when he is a bit older. I personally would not tweak anything on his routine if he is still sleeping through the night, and not having Nws. I only suggested those strategies as you were wondering about his long days and earlier wake up times.Is he happy during the day or is he grumpy? If he is happy during the day , sttn, does not have NWs and is not refusing his naps I would just go with the flow and see how it goes. It is much better to do that than to change his routine too much and he might starting to have NWs or even earlier EWs iykwim. This is just my opinion though. I understand that every lo is different and you must do what you believe is right for you and your family. ;-)     

[B J]

Yes, I was thinking I'll just go with the flow.  He is very happy during the day and MIL does a good job playing with him and keeping him entertained.  If he starts refusing a nap, then I can explain to her that we need to adjust the naps.  The only thing is that I would prefer that one of the naps be longer than an hour as I don't think an hour is restorative enough?  But like you said, if he's happy and STTN, I'll try not to worry about it. 

[Grants]

I think that 1 hour for each nap it is ok though (as long as your lo is thriving and happy with it) I think what counts is the total amount. X