2 and a half years later and things are no better please please help!!

[exhaustedmum]

Hi everyone
Yep its me I'm back again to ask for help. For the past 2 nights my 2 and a half year old ds has refused to go to sleep until after 10pm after almost 3 hours of trying. Needless 2 say I am more than at my wits end as this late late bed time has been followed by him aking every hour after until I give up around 3am and bring him into our bed. after the usual wind down routine of bath, story, bottle of milk I then leave my ds to go asleep. I havent even left the room for 1 min and he's out of bed most of the time he's thinks its a game and runs around and laughs. Its like he has endless energy. It has taken for me to lie beside him until he falls asleep. My ds has never slept well since birth and he has only ever slept thru the night at the most ten times.
 
I have tried returning him to bed everytime he gets out as well  disciplining him with the naughty step but alas nothing seems to work.
his routine is roughly
7-730 awake, 9am - 5pm full time at day care, 630 dinner, 7pm dinner, story, bottle of milk and sleep 730. He has a nap each day at day care from 12 noon til 130pm. My dh and I both work full time so its hard to get dinner and bedtime any earlier than this. Can anyone please give me some advise. TBH i am so fed up with these night wakenings - but then feel so guilty for feeling this way.

[momtonb&ab]

sounds a lot to me like he needs to have the nap shortened .... the bedtime refusal at this age can be that the daytime sleep is too much. 

as for the 'into your bed' that sounds like a prop that you might need to break.  have you looked over at the props board for some ideas on how to start weaning that?  (you would still post here as he is over a  year, but the props board will have specific ideas that you could consider).

i am also wondering about the bottle of milk before bed.  at this age they become increasingly aware of their need to pee, and if my little ones have a big drink before bed often they need to pee shortly thereafter which affects the ability to settle.  could that be part of it? 

[jennyandgraham]

I was wondering if disciplining him with the naughty step might have become part of the game too, part of getting your attention.  I'd go with straight back to bed, no words, no lights, no eye contact, no reaction from Mum, ad infinitum so it becomes a less fun game.   
The milk may also be giving him a sugar boost just when he needs to be on a sugar low to swith off.  It would not be so bad if he was going to sleep immediately because it would not have kicked in by then, but if he is not going to sleep then you are fueling his rampages.
Could you get the daycare to give him dinner at say 4:30 and then only give him a light supper when you get home.  You've listed dinner as being at 6:30 (and 7 which I'm guessing is supposed to be a bath) but if he is full of beans at night then maybe he needs more time to burn off his energy before bed.  Alternatively, if you are trying to have a family meal then could you eat with him at the daycare (or near the daycare if you've got some traveling to do) before leaving?
Good luck

[anjabibby]

Poor you, this sounds awful. I also have a 2.5 yr old who went through the whole messing around at bedtime, not wanting to go to sleep, and only finally going to sleep about 9.30 - 10pm. We had to cut her nap - completely - the first days were hard hard work as she was shattered at 6, and getting her to 7pm was difficult. But she went straight to bed and straight to sleep. She is at nursery two days a week and has an hours nap and we do find that she can be a bit more difficult about going to sleep, but generally we will put her to bed 30 mins later and put up with a bit of shouting for mummy/daddy.
I would really ask the nursery to cut his nap to 45mins and see what happens if he is tired. I would also not go in if he is just playing - I know it is difficult to just listen to them messing, when you want to have an evening, but on a the days where she still plays up, I simply walk out turn off the light, and say I will come back when you want tucking into bed. Doesn't usually take more than 5 mins. It is also helpful that she can't open her bedroom door - this may be something.  
The NW after this sounds terrible, and I don't know what to suggest - what does he do at each waking - cry? want something?

[saltyqueen]

Hi, If he ends up in bed with you then it sounds like he's just going to hold out until that's what he gets. I think you have to brace yourself for a few nights of hell, but that you need to ignore him. Is it too late to return him to a crib? It sounds like he isn't at a stage where he can control himself from getting out of bed which is a large part of the problem, right?

[exhaustedmum]

Hi everyone
Thanks so so much for your advice. tonight am glad to say has been a little more successful. He has been asleep since 9pm. Ds was very tired at nursery today and it would appear his overtiredness may have caught up with him as the staff had to put him down for his nap a little earlier than usual today.

I also left out ds's bottle of milk tonight to see if that helps. I read somewhere else that the bottle may also be a bit of a prop for him and his association of settling to sleep. yes he did cry for 3 or 4 mins when I refused to give in to his requests for it (oh the guilt i felt though was hard going) but soon settled.

I forgot to mention earlier that we started potty training him about 4 weeks ago. After the first week he managed to get the hang of doing his "wees" in the potty but the poos havent quite made it their yet. He then took an infection down below and this week we have seen a lot more wet accidents compared to the previous two weeks. Am wondering if a combination of the potty training and the infection may be making him more unsettled and the need for extra reassurance or is the getting out of bed just a new way of getting my attention?

Was wondering if perhaps doing gradual withdrawal would be the best way forward or would this just be another way of him getting my attention? Guess I'm just thinking that maybe he needs his confidence built back up in order to get back to independent sleep?
As regards his nap during the day I find that if he doesnt take a nap at all this only adds to his overtiredness. In turn this actually seems to increase the number of N/W's. But will ask the nursery to maybe cut his nap down to an hr instead of his usual hr and a half.

as always your advice would be greatly appreciated. Gaining someone else's perspective who's been in this position is really really helpful.
Thanks again
exhausted x

 

[momtonb&ab]

i think you know your child best - gw would be an option for sure. at this age though, i can't help but wonder if wi/wo might be a better choice.... but again, you know him best and know if he needs a confidence boost.

i am sure the infection is affecting his sleep.  is he on antibiotics?  that can have an effect as well.   i suspect the milk before bed is a big part - if he is potty training then he is perhaps being disturbed by the need to pee just when he is trying to settle because he has had that milk.  you might want to stick to your resolve and get that milk into him earlier in the day.

i do think if 9pm is the earliest he will sleep that nap needs to be shortened. 

[exhaustedmum]

Hi everyone
the last 48 hours have been a complete whirlwind with my ds. Last night it was a re-run of the first two nights when he kept getting out of bed and not settling till 10pm. I give up at 930pm and brought him into my bed Needless to say that he was alseep within ten mins. So I transfered him back into his own bed. He woke again at 3am requesting a drink. So I gave him some water and he went back over til 7am. I honestly thought he would have slept later given he wasnt asleep until 10pm.
Today he has fought his sleep all day, becoming hyper when it reached those points when he could hardly keep his eyes open. As he didnt take his normal nap today I put him to bed at 7pm After his usual story i tried to lie him down and tucked him in and left him to go to sleep. But alais within 2 mins he was out of bed. So I stayed with him and reassured him with my hand on his back. He was asleep tonight by 8pm.

I feel so fed up and helpless. I know what I'm doing to get my ds son to sleep isnt really helping the problem. But when he starts getting out of bed and playing up I seem to lose any clue about what to do. Its been two and a half years of disturbed sleep for my ds, dh, and me, with no more than ten full nights sleep. I would love for all of us to get consistent full nights sleep but then again maybe I'm asking for too much. I know being a parent is really really hard sometimes but at the min it just seems nothing is going to improve the situation.

I'm I the only one that feels like this?

Please please can someone give me the answer to this ongoing situation.

[momtonb&ab]

What happened today is that he was way OT by normal naptime because of the late night so probably you should try a much earlier nap on those days.  If he didn't nap at all today then bed might have been 5 or 6 because we know he is so OT.

It sounds like you are going to have to stay with him in his room for a few weeks - wait with him while he falls asleep ( oR resettled in the night) and then slowly wean him from that once he is rested.  You will probably also need to really watch his A times and get him to bed BEFORE you notice he is tired because he seems to perhaps show tired signs only when he hits OT.  You also will need earlier sleep times to give you that extra time to settle him before OT sets in. 

It will be a few weeks of hard work but as soon as you keep him sleeping in his own room and knowing you will not cave he will get better sleep!  Hang in there!

[exhaustedmum]

Thanks for the advice. Yes think just staying in the room with him whilst he first goes over and resettling him is the only way forward right now. at least with ds sleeping in his own bed dh and i can get a couple of hours quality sleep without being kicked in the back!

was thinking though does anyone think a gro-clock would help improve things or would it be a waste of money?

[momtonb&ab]

We use a timer/light much like a grow clock and it helped a lot but just to gently remind you that the props (sleeping in your bed/milk) and the OT really should be resolved if not fully then well on their way before introducing the clock or it probably wont work. 

[exhaustedmum]

hi momtonb&ab
I am pleased to say that my ds has been asleep since 7:45pm tonight. It been a very busy day for all of us today. Despite trying he didnt want to take a nap until 5:30pm. Needless to say I purposely kept him up. We were visiting my folks today so didnt get home til 6:45pm.

My ds did start messing around after getting his story read but I have to admit I stood firm and called his bluff. Thankfully he was asleep with 15 min of getting into bed. I did sit in the room with him at the end of his eye but without making eye contact or talking to him. Just hope we can make a bit of progress from here on instead of any regression.

Think I will take your advice and many hold off on the groclock for a few weeks til this OT and props have been nipped in the bud.

Thanks again - here's hoping we all get a bit more sleep tonight x

[momtonb&ab]

one small step at a time.   remember, he is used to doing it the other way, it will take some days to show him the change is ok - even good.  just be consistent, at this age that is so so so so important!!