How much sleep for a 3.5 year old?

[elf]

So we are still in the process of dropping DD's nap.  Every time I think about getting rid of it altogether something crops up like illness, night time toilet training etc... so it's still there.  The problem I have is that if I try and go cold turkey and not let her nap and try and get through the day, she will just take herself off to bed on her own every few days, or fall asleep on the couch at around 3pm.  So we often end up with days where she desperately needs to take a much needed 3 hour nap but then bed ends up late, the day starts early and this seems to be what we are stuck in at the moment.  I would like her to get used to mostly not napping.  About a month ago she was mostly averaging 12/12.5 hours total - roughly a two hour nap and a 10/10.5 hour night.  But is 12/12.5 hours too much to expect for night sleep at this age?  The days where she hasn't napped, her nights tend to be 11.5 hours max, which makes for a long day without a nap.  Or could it be that her sleep needs have changed?  I guess I'm just curious to see what other 3.5 year old/4 year old children do with their sleep.  She's spirited and has always needed her sleep, which is why she is still napping at 3.5 years old and why she is finding it so hard to give up.  She wakes up so so so happy and so so so full of energy - there's no easing into the day, today she started the day at 5am and told me she was, 'going camping' and had her backpack on, had written a list and rode her bike up and down the deck then drew me about 20 pictures until I dragged myself out of bed at 6am (she has an alarm clock, but didn't work today because of yesterday's nap) - but she will happily have quiet time and enjoys reading/puzzles etc as well.   I would love to get rid of the nap, but even when I try I sometimes just find that she has taken herself off to bed to sleep.   She crashed tonight at 5.45pm due to that 5am start.  I think we are getting stuck in a vicious circle.  Thanks 

[babybarr]

I'm not sure but bumping your post!

Have you tried just letting her nap say 45mins at a later time?

[shivi]

I know that vicious circle all too well unfortunately....

Last school year between 3 yrs 5 mths and 4 yrs 3 mths we were in it due to no facility for napping at fulltime 8am to 3pm nursery...

some things helped - always napping at the weekends and letting him nap for as long as he wanted (still have that trick up our sleeves even now at 4.5) so even a 12-3pm nap if he will do it (getting over illness for instance) and then a very late bedtime and a 10 hr night which means still 13 in 24...

a catnap at 3pm for even 20 mins (the ride home from nursery) to take the edge off his tiredness and get him thro the witching hours of 4-6pm and then an 8/8.30 pm sleeptime which meant a 6.30/7pm wake time.

We never get more than 11 hrs sleep at night since around 2.5 yrs. Before that he'd do 12 max. He was a great napper though, especially from the 2:1 when he'd do a 3 hr nap everyday, no probs. We cut the 3 hrs to 2 hrs at around 20 mths as it caused initial EWs (like his sister now) and then to 1.5 around 2 yrs/26 mths ish and down and down from then on.

Another thing we did in the initial transition was a catnap on mon, weds, fri (this was at 2 yrs 9mths when he started fulltime prenursery on those 3 days) and a full 2 hr nap on weekends and tues thurs.

Hope this helps.

S x

[We Three]

How it started for us was that she began skipping a nap here and there...then we went to every other day. On the days she napped, her days looked like this..
   8am wake
   2pm nap til 3:30
   9pm  bed

On no-nap days, which is where we have been for about 5 months (dd will be 4 in Dec.), her nights are 11ish hours long, bed at 8:30, wake at about 8.  She has always been on the higher end of sleep needs...(just like her mother!) and although there are some tricky afternoons where I need to sing in the car or engage her in some way or she'll fall asleep. The car is the worst!! No car after 3pm...or so I try!  

We're in a really cool groove now!

I tried to limit dd's naps.....as they got later and later (because she could stay awake longer) and were inching towards 4pm, I tried waking her at about 45 minutes, but she will NOT be woekn up...kicks, screams, sobs....it was horrible.  During those first few weeks without naps, she needed to go to sleep on some nights at around 7pm....but then she seems to adjust...and now we consistently have the 11ish hour night.

Transitioning away from nap can be tough.....good luck! TBH I wouldn't mind at all if she takes herself to bed on her own every few days like you said....in fact it's awesome that she knows she needs to sleep! I'd let her....and just try to limit the nap if you can!

 

[deckchariot]

My dd is a bit over 3.5, and has always been a high sleep needs kid.  She'd nap for 3 hrs in the day if I let her, but then bedtime would be sooooooooo late, so I too limit her.  Her day looks like this (usually):
7/7:30 - wake up
1/1:130 - nap
2:30 - wake
8 - bedtime

We do have occasional nap refusal, and on those days, she's in bed by 7:30.  Sometimes she'll crash in the car when we go pick dh up from work, so she gets a catnap from 4:45 - 5:30 ish and is a total nightmare when she wakes up from that, so we usually still end up putting her to bed by 7:30.

I plan on keeping that nap as long as I possibly can.  When she misses it, by about 4, she's just beside herself, and by 5, so am I!!

[elf]

Thanks so much - very helpful into.   DD has also been high sleep needs.  She seems to be averaging 11/11.5 hours now though.  Last night without a nap was 5.40pm - 5.15am (11.5 hours) but I want to get out of this falling asleep at 6pm and waking at 5am.  She too is a total nightmare without the nap but doesn't like to be woken from the nap so I think she either takes a sleep where she wakes on her own every now and then or we push through til 7pm and get a 6am wake up.  Because we have quite busy mornings and she has a brother who is just moving to one nap after lunch, I am letting her watch TV on the couch after lunch and while he is sleeping with her dummy and lovie as some chill out time, and if she falls asleep on the couch then I'll let it only be an hour max.  Problem is she does seem as though she still needs this nap but I'm thinking that perhaps if I can shift that nap to her night sleep over night, then she won't seem so tired.  The 5am starts are definitely not helping, but given that she has never been an early riser, that is definitely a sign that the nap is now affecting night sleep and that she has dropped sleep needs from 12.5 - 11.5 hours.  I am happy to hear that an 11 hour night is sufficient for her age as I think once this all evens out, then she will end up doing that.  At the moment I do feel as though something drastic needs to be done with the nap as her body clock seems to be all over the place these last few weeks.  The only thing I don't like about her not napping is that she is often so tired she doesn't even want to eat her dinner and last night I didn't even get to clean her teeth - she is literally passing out from exhaustion but I'm hoping that this will change.  Thanks so much.  I just need to try and push through til 7pm and maybe let her nap twice a week.  Hopefully it won't take too long for things to get back to normal

[elf]

We did 2 no nap days in a row and the outcome was not good.  Her behaviour was terrible - demanding, emotional, obnoxious...  Also on the 2nd no nap day she didn't appear to be enjoying herself when playing as she was too tired.  Yesterday morning she was a wreck so I put her to bed at 12pm and she slept til 2.30pm.  She was asleep at 7.45pm with no dramas and after that nap she was amazing - so much fun, we went out for the afternoon etc, back to her old self.  Can't quite believe the transformation when she is lacking sleep - it's not good.  Unfortunately we are dealing with 5.30am wake ups but here in Western Australia there in no DLS so it is incredibly light, sunny, beautiful etc so I will have to accept that for a little while - if she gets up at this time she just amuses herself anyway.  Today she seems fine but I will encourage a nap and might wake her after 1 or 1.5 hours.  Either that or she can nap every second day.  Looks like this process isn't going to be as simple as dropping it completely for longer nights - given that she can't cope with such a long day.  She's such a joy in the evenings when she's napped, just means a little less 'y time' but when she is lacking sleep there's not much 'y time' given her mood swings!   I'll take a shorter night with a nap over a grumpy preschooler   Thanks for the info - interesting to see others needing to hold on to the nap til around 4 years old. 

[Aly Mac]

My DD is four and we have been dropping the nap for the past 6 months. Our day now looks like this

7.15 wake up (grow clock, but normally around 7)

7pm bed, asleep by 7.30

as the days of no naps go on, sometimes it is a little later wake up.

On nap days, we let her nap for an hour max, and bedtime is normally around 7.30 with sleep at 8. and it's a battle (I let dh do that one).

We still have about 2 days a week of naps, depending on the day, esp on weekend.  I found I needed to start with a decent wake up time to do a no nap cycle.  5 am is too hard, so I would start limiting the nap if you can.

[elf]

Thanks for that.  I put her to bed (nap) at 1.30pm so I will wake her at 2.30pm.  I agree, 1 hour every day is all she needs.  I used to wake her about a month ago but then she got sick and the longer naps didn't seem to affect the nights so I just let her do the 2 hours.  There is no way I can let her do no nap when she wakes up at 5.30am.  It's tough because she's never been a 5am/5.30 girl.  When she did the no nap days the nights were around 11.5 hours but the days were pretty unbearable so hopefully with a 1 hour nap every day, things will sort themselves out.  If I could get her back to sleeping til around 6.30am/7am then that would be great, though not sure how.  Maybe by capping the nap every day to 1 hour might help out...  I know that even with a 1 hour nap bedtime will still be around 7.30pm so maybe tomorrow will be a later wake up - fingers crossed!

[elf]

...Impossible to wake up after 1 hour so will leave her til 3pm today (1.5 hours) and work towards 1 hour over the next few days...

[Aly Mac]

sounds like a plan....

your lo seems to be stalking mine LOL.. funny how some kids are right behind another here

[elf]

So we are doing much better here.  Thought I'd update, just in case this helps someone else at all.  DD is not one to be woken up from a nap (just makes for a gumpy mood afterward and still tired, so achieved nothing) but we are definitely heading towards no napping and basically our no nap days look like this:

6pm - being the wind down as this seems to be the success to getting into bed and asleep before 7pm - otherwise the second wind comes and the 'I'm not tired' - despite being shattered.  I've noticed on no nap days the wind down and getting her into bed takes a lot longer and she isn't quite as willing so it can't be rushed.
6.45pm lights out and pretty much asleep straight away.
6am/6.15am seems to be the wake up after a no nap day.

But, she clearly needs a couple of catch up nap days so when I see the bad behaviour coming and and the real tired signs we do a nap and let her sleep as long as she wants.  She will be asleep on those days at either 8pm but it can be as late as 9pm, and often it is met with a 5.15/5.30 wake... but this is what is needed it would appear...  then she seems good to go for a few more days without a nap.  So, couldn't do it cold turkey and have to accept short nights and EW's as part of the transition but she is beginning to cope a lot better on the no nap days.  She definitely needs a rest and some days is willing to lye down in her bed for 20 mins but other days won't and I'm not pushing it, just put on some TV mid day and hope that she sits down and relaxes for an hour or so.  What I've noticed is that because she is very spirited (also angel/textbook which balances it out) even on the days where she won't nap she does tend to be busy all day long - then needs to crash every few days for that nap.  She is a bit of an 'all or nothing' kind of girl...  So there you go - we are now averaging 11 -11.5 hours sleep and she seems good on this.