7 month and still a 30 min napper. HELP!!!

[Sisselotte]

Hi, I'm from Denmark (Europe) and I'm not familiar with the acronyms used in this forum, so please bear with me 
I have a spirited baby who's also a bit touchy - a little over 7 months old. His naps have almost never been longer than than 25-30 min and it's driving me crazy. He is responding well to the pu/pd during night time - last night he slept from 6.30 pm to 4 am and then cried for 1 1/2 hours during which I did the pu/pd 70-80 times. When we started 1 1/2 weeks ago he woke up 4-5 times every night... Unfortunately after last night I got severe back pains and even worse my pelvis started to really hurt from all the lifting. Not good! So today I wasn't able to do the pu/pd when he woke up from naps, only a few times when his crying was really bad... He hasn't really responded well to that in the daytime anyway, so I'm at my wits end when it comes to napping...

Any ideas on what to do when you can't do the pu/pd because of pain?

As I said before my baby wakes up after 25-30 min napping, and it's impossible to make him go back to sleep again, unless I've been taking him out in the baby carriage. In the baby carriage he also wakes up after 25 min but is often able to go back to sleep within 20 min if I avoid making eye contact with him and make sure he can't look outside of the carriage. But I guess the baby carriage is a prop and I don't want to have to take it out for 4 hours every day  So the last three days I've been trying really hard to make him sleep in our bedroom (we only have a living room and one bedroom and so have to sleep in the same room). But this has not yet been a success and I'm about to give up.
I read the long sleep Q&A interview with Tracy and have been doing what she explains. But it's been utter chaos to be honest, and the first day I was literally in tears as I found myself really angry with my baby. I started feeling that he was torturing me - and I also feel I'm torturing him. Today I thought about starting a savings account for the therapy he is going to need when he gets older - from screaming his lungs out with his mother staring at him from above with empty, sad or angry eyes...
The thing is, as I said before my back and pelvis has been aching too much for me to do the pu/pd today. So that way of comforting and reassuring him of my support has not been possible... Also my boy either screams his lungs out or tries to play with everything around (which is not much as I've stripped his bed from toys and colorful bed linens - there's really not much to look at down there, but then he pulls the bed linen or my hand whenever it gets near or my sleeve or...) laughing, yelling and shouting frantically. He is so overtired, and I can't seem to find any way of calming him... When I lay my hand on my babys chest he either starts playing with it or pushes it away - when I lay my hand on his back he rolls to his back. So that way of comforting is not really working for us either... Using my voice in a low tone saying key phrases like you're okay, it's okay seems to make him more awake. A few times I've been able to make him doze, but just as I think 'this is really good, he's actually falling asleep' he manages to wake himself up again and starts shouting, yelling and playing with the bars around his bed!!!
I know he is just very overtired and this morning I actually think I missed his window at 7.45 because I thought he couldn't already be sleepy again only 45 min after he got up! Shoul I try to put him to sleep if he gets tired that quick tomorrow as well?

We have made an E.A.S.Y. schedule that looks like this:

7 wake and breast feed
7.30 7.45 breakfast
8 A
9 S
11 wake and breast feed
11.30 lunch
12 A
1 S
3 wake and breast feed
3.30 fruit snack
4 A
5.30 dinner
6 bath and massage
7 bedtime

But today it looked like this:

7 wake up and breast feed
8 breakfast
8.30 bed and wind down - no luck
9.10 go sit in living room for 10 min
9.30 S
9.57 wakes up / wind down - no luck
10.37 go sit in living room for 10 min
10.47 bed and wind down - no luck
11 E
12 wind down in living room for 10 min
12.10 bed and wind down
12.30 S
1 wake up / wind down - no luck
1.40 go sit in living room for 10 min
1.50 bed and wind down - no luck
2.30 go sit in living room for 10 min
2.40 bed / wind down - no luck
3 E
Gave up on the napping project - dad tried around 4.30 with no luck
3.30 A
5.30 dinner
6 bath and massage
6.50 S (sleeping very restless)

I've just read the sleep Q&A interview again and realised, that after each E I could have kept him up for longer than 10 min... Up to 30-45 min... But what else could I have done? This day has been all about that bed of his and almost no A time... And still he has only taken two half hour naps...

I saw my baby yawn at 7.45 - so if I had put him to sleep then, what should the schedule have looked like then? Should I have skipped breakfast or just served it for him when he woke up again? In a perfect world he would have slept till 9.45 but then he would have skipped breakfast and A time, next breast feed is 1h 15min away and lunch is 1h 45min away. Would it be okay to serve breakfast and play in the meantime and still breast feed at 11 and lunch at 11.30?

I know one acronym and that is OMG!!! So... OMG this posting is so messy but I hope you understand my questions and troubles anyway and have some ideas for me, because I really need it before I go nuts 
 

[Sisselotte]

Also my baby is doing  the chicken dance with his arms and a Cossack dance with his legs, and I he goes nuts if I try to help him keep his limbs still... a couple of months ago we swaddled him during the night and it made him sleep longer during the night, but now he gets really mad if I try to swaddle...

[~Sara~]

Hi there!  And welcome to BW   In addition to my comments, I am including links that I think will help you.

First of all, we're here to help.  Please don't be angry at yourself or at your baby.  He's not acting defiantly, and I promise, promise, PROMISE you will not have to pay for therapy resulting from this transition time.  Am I correct in assuming that you are just starting Baby Whisperer?

What really stuck out to me was that fact that your LO (little one) is probably wanting to stay awake LONGER   At 7 months, most LOs are doing about 2h45-3h A times.  Now, that's just a guideline, but I'm betting he's going to be able to handle an A time somewhere close to that.  A times are eyes open to eyes shut, and includes eating, activity time, and wind down.  Basically, I think of A time as Awake Time more than just Activity Time.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=128419.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0

So, going by that, I think that if you were to increase his A time by ~10 minutes every couple of days that he would sleep longer for his naps.  If you think he would be able to handle it, you could increase his A time by 15 minutes every couple of days (don't do a bigger jump than that--we want his body to get used to more A time gradually).

I know you mentioned that he starts yawning after only being awake for 45 minutes.  I think, honestly, he's just yawning.  I got really, really confused with "tired cues" with my LO and it wasn't until I found those A time guidelines that I realized I was acting way too soon and putting LO down undertired (UT).  Because he hadn't been awake long enough for his body's needs, his naps were short.  It wasn't fun, and I totally understand where you're coming from.

While I do think that his day is starting off UT, it seems that he's overtired (OT) by the end.  As we work on getting his first A time/nap just right, that will give us a better idea of how the rest of his day will fall into place

So, let's work on getting him onto a more age-appropriate EASY, okay?

Here are some sample routines to kind of give you an idea of what other LOs are doing at this age (please remember these are samples, and you and I can work together to figure out what best works for your son):
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164030.0

Lastly, have you tried shh/pat instead of PU/PD?  Some babies just don't like PU/PD but still respond well to shh/pat well after the age of 4 months.  It might be something to consider.

Give the new A time a shot for a couple of days.  Then we'll reassess.   Let me know how you're doing, okay?

[Sisselotte]

Hi and thanks for answering so quickly.

This morning I put my LO ;-) to sleep at 8.30 and he slept 1h 15 which is more than I ever experienced before in his 7 months. I have no idea whether it means he is OT or UT or if it had something to do with me climbing into his bed till he slept? I'm so confused, so it's nice to have someone like you to help work this out. So thank you for offering your help it's greatly appreciated :-)

Yes I'm just starting Baby Whisperer. I've read most of 'Secrets of the Baby Whisperer' and are now reading 'The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems'. As soon as I read about the five baby types and totally recognized my own LO in two of them (very Spirited with a touch of Touchy) I knew that this would be the method working for us... But I never thought I would see my LO so upset and miserable... Also I never thought I would end up so angry with him as well as myself. I know he isn't the one to blame, and mostly I'm angry with myself for not getting to know my sons cues before now. But then again it's not like we get a manual at the hospital - actually at the hospital I was told that when his arms were fluttering and his legs kicking he was having a stomach ache!!! Now I know better :-)

Yes I have tried the shh/pat with my LO and he hates it. It's like the sh...sh...sh... doesn't work at all and gets him worked up even more, and the patting is impossible because he turns around as soon as I lay my hand on his back (so that he lies on my hand). Maybe he will be more calm after a longer A time? I'll see if I dare try shh/pat again ;-)

I will follow your advice and lengthen his A time and then get back to you. Thanks again!

[~Sara~]

Hi!!  Just checking in to see how the past couple of days have gone.  My apologies for not having responded sooner.

Hmm, are you still climbing into bed with your LO?  Is this normally how it goes for your wind down? 

Not all LOs like shh/pat, and that's fine.  If you find that he really does NOT like it, no point in frustrating both of you, right?

Please go easy on yourself with reading his cues.  Honestly, if we all TOTALLY understood what our babies were "saying" all the time, the forums would be much, much quieter.  My view is that it takes time.  Every baby is different, so even with moms who have multiple LOs who they've used BW with, they still go through a transition period of learning about their baby.  I felt totally clueless, too, and like a horrible mom because I felt like I wasn't "perfect" even after a couple of months on BW.  I've since learned that that's a dangerous path to go down and that the BWer techniques are tools to help guide us--they don't necessarily give us the answers in and of themselves.  It takes the proper tools (BW) plus YOUR expertise (being a parent) to get at the heart of baby whispering.  So, keep your chin up.  You're doing a fine job

[Sisselotte]

Hi again Sara

I've not been able to get to my computer the last couple of days, so I haven't seen your last entry till now. Thanks for the reassurance, it's a comfort to know that others have been feeling like me 

Oh no climbing into my LO's bed is not part of my normal routine  I just read in Tracys book that if a child seems traumatised by his bed. I had a feeling my son was afraid of his bed so I got into it with him, he fell asleep and I got out again. The next time I tried it, he pushed me away and I got out immediately - kind of obvious he didn't want me there  So that was it. But I guess it worked as he now seems to have no problem with his bed.

We have increased his A time to 2h 15min, and he is soo tired when I put him to bed that if I wait 5-10 min he gets so overtired he isn't able to sleep at all, or he keeps waking up. So for now it seems 2h 15min is maximum A time. The length of his sleep varies from 1 to 2 hours and when he wakes after 1 hour he isn't happy and making him sleep again is almost impossible... His morning nap is mostly 1h 30min to 2h while the afternoon nap is 1h. When he wakes up in the afternoon he is still tired but I haven't yet succeeded in getting him back to sleep. He just got up on all fours this weekend so he is all about trying to crawl. I guess because of that it's like he can't control his body and so when he wakes up in the afternoon keeps rolling over and getting up on all fours. And it seems to really frustrate him because he is still really tired. Every time he gets up like that I gently lay him back down again but it only seems to frustrate him even more and hasn't helped him go back to sleep yet - we can go on like that for an hour and then it's E time... Do you have any advice on this?

I know 2h 15min is less than the A times on the 'chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months'. But then again his total nap time is now 2h 30 min to 3h which is really great for a baby that has never napped more than 20-30 min and a total of 1h 30min during the day before now. So I'm quite happy 

I have one more question for you though. The last couple of days my son has been fussing up to an hour before his usual waking up time in the morning (we get up at 6.30 am and he starts fussing around 5.30). This kind of mess up our routine from the beginning of the day. So my question is do I adjust the routine so that I put him back to bed for his morning nap at 7.45 am (after 2h 15min A time)? If I do this he will end up going to sleep for the night at 5.30 pm, an hour earlier than usual and I'm afraid that he will just wake up even earlier the next morning... How do we avoid getting into a vicious circle?

Looking forward to hearing from you again

[~Sara~]

Every time he gets up like that I gently lay him back down again but it only seems to frustrate him even more and hasn't helped him go back to sleep yet - we can go on like that for an hour and then it's E time... Do you have any advice on this?

DS was never too keen on crawling, and when he did, he did an army crawl with his tummy on the floor   So, I don't have much experience first-hand with this.  I do know, however, from other moms that what you're already doing--comforting him in the crib so that he can go back to sleep--is the best approach for this until the urge passes.

I know 2h 15min is less than the A times on the 'chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months'. But then again his total nap time is now 2h 30 min to 3h which is really great for a baby that has never napped more than 20-30 min and a total of 1h 30min during the day before now. So I'm quite happy

Here, I defer to you.  You're right there with him, and if you can tell that he's doing well on the routine he's on, then we'll go with 2h15 A times for the time being.  I think, however (and see my suggestion below) that his body will get caught up on sleep and suddenly manifesting a need for change in other ways....

The last couple of days my son has been fussing up to an hour before his usual waking up time in the morning (we get up at 6.30 am and he starts fussing around 5.30). This kind of mess up our routine from the beginning of the day. So my question is do I adjust the routine so that I put him back to bed for his morning nap at 7.45 am (after 2h 15min A time)? If I do this he will end up going to sleep for the night at 5.30 pm, an hour earlier than usual and I'm afraid that he will just wake up even earlier the next morning... How do we avoid getting into a vicious circle?

There are lots of different reasons for EWs (early wakings).  Once you rule out hunger, discomfort, or sickness, then it's more than likely routine-related.  Have you noticed him being ill or do you think he's teething? 

To avoid an earlier and earlier start of the day, you do have to preserve his regular bedtime; but it can't be pushed too much or else he will be OT AND waking up early (not fun).

Do you think his 2nd nap might actually be an undertired nap?  Have you tried extending his A time a little bit to see if you can get him past 1h?

How have the past couple of days gone?

[Sisselotte]

I think, however (and see my suggestion below) that his body will get caught up on sleep and suddenly manifesting a need for change in other ways....

I think you're right about this and I'm waiting for it to happen any day soon

There are lots of different reasons for EWs (early wakings).  Once you rule out hunger, discomfort, or sickness, then it's more than likely routine-related.  Have you noticed him being ill or do you think he's teething?

This morning I breast fed him at 5.30 am. He seemed very satisfied with this and went straight back to sleep afterwards. Actually he seemed to be able to sleep past 7 am but I woke him up for the sake of the routine... Is that okay or should I just let him sleep till he wakes up?
I'm not sure about the teething... he dribbles a lot these days, but I still can't see anything on his gums... So I'm holding my breath

Do you think his 2nd nap might actually be an undertired nap?  Have you tried extending his A time a little bit to see if you can get him past 1h?

Yes maybe that's it! I'll try to extend his A time and see how it goes.

The last couple of days have been relatively calm but the length of his naps is still varying, and he still wakes up 1/2 - 1 hour early ind the morning. So from monday I will extend his A time with 15 min to see what happens. Fingers crossed 

Again thank you for your input. I really appreciate it 

[~Sara~]

Actually he seemed to be able to sleep past 7 am but I woke him up for the sake of the routine... Is that okay or should I just let him sleep till he wakes up?

I would have woken him up at his normal wake-up time, just like you did.  Give the A time increase a shot for the next couple of days and let me know how it goes   Good luck!

[Sisselotte]

Time flies when you try to make your LO sleep It's been a couple of weeks since I last wrote here. But I promised to keep you updated on my sons napping and I'm back to tell you all about it.

The last couple of weeks have been a bit rough. It turned out he was in fact teething AND he fell from our bed to the wooden floor and got a bump on his forehead. So both accident and new tooth kind of messed up his night sleep and his naps. Also we had a couple of early family Christmas arrangements, and since he refuses to sleep in other peoples houses he didn't fall asleep till late in the evening... So now we're working on getting back on track and it's not easy...

I tried to increase his A time as you suggested, but then he started waking up after 35 min of napping... So now his A time varies from 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 hours in the morning and then 2-3 hours around lunch time... With these A times he naps 1-2 hours in the morning and 1 hour in the afternoon. It's still not enough as he only wakes up happy when the nap has lasted two hours. I've noticed that when he wakes up too early from a nap after, that is after one hour, almost every time it's because of a dirty diaper. And even though I try to nurse him really quietly he gets too awake and impossible to settle down afterwards... So that's a real bummer Now I'm thinking that he eats too late, so that most of his A time is before meals and that is why he poops when taking a nap (because eating is too close to napping). Maybe if I make his breakfast and lunch the night before then he can eat first thing after waking up in the morning and right after his first nap without waiting for me to finish cooking... maybe then he will poop before nap time