Starting EASY

[AJsMumandDad]

Hi

My DD is 7 months old (4 weeks prem) and I am trying to implement a routine as up to now have not had one and no two days are the same, which has been driving us both crazy!  Also my main reason for trying to implement this is a lot of night wakings recently and now I'm feeding her sometimes twice a night.  I think she is teething on and off as she rubs her gums a lot with toys and she has had a bit of a cough and cold.  I have been feeding her every 3 hours (fully Breastfed and now having solids) and naps have always been an issue as she doesn't usually go longer than 30 minutes - 40 at best - and she is VERY prone to overtiredness and gets very cranky.  I think we are in a trap of short naps, short awake times.  I therefore decided yesterday to start the 4 hour easy routine but have adapted it slightly as I can't really do pu/pd due to her having reflux and me having a bad shoulder.  She uses a paci which I know is a prop but at this stage, I'm not too worried so use this to try and get her back to sleep when she wakes - altho yesterday for both naps took me nearly an hour with lots of angry crying! 

My main question really is about the 20 minutes settling in before the nap.  Does this have to be in the cot on her own or can I take her to our room (her cot is still in with us at the moment) and hold her and wind her down within this 20 mins?  She can sometimes be in the cot happy on her own but sometimes she will just keep crying and I end up rubbing her chest or holding her hands until she pretty much falls asleep and then I'm not sure whether that counts as settling herself.  If I hold her for a bit until she looks drowsy and then put her in she can sometimes fall asleep within 10 mins.  It's hard cos no 2 put downs are the same.

Also, I usually stay in the room until she is asleep, altho if she is settled I try and stay out of sight but I guess she knows I'm there cos if she drops the dummy she 'calls' out for me to replace it, which I do! Should I be leaving or is out of sight ok?

Any help appreciated!
Thanks
Dana

[AJsMumandDad]

Sorry a couple of other things I forgot to ask:

I am unable to do a dreamfeed in the late evening due to her reflux and the fact that she's very gassy so I wouldn't feel able to fully wind her if she was asleep.  Should I not worry then about doing a night feed as if I feed her last at 6:30pm and then not till 7am in the morning, this is a long time to go and maybe she can't go this long yet?  I tend to feed her anywhere between 3-5pm and it tends to settle her more for the rest of the sleep until morning.

She seems to have a lot of trouble going through the sleep cycles and as I mentioned tends to always wake after 30-45 mins.  This even happens at night, she will go down settled to bed but will wake usually around the hour mark.  With the naps, I have tried w2s and httj but only v. occasionally has this worked, it usually ends up with me waking her up or her waking to find me holding her whilst trying to hide!  This must really confuse the poor thing!  So the only thing I can try and do is get her back to sleep for the remainder of the nap period.  Now, sometimes she will wake up and just seem to amuse herself in the cot, not crying but blowing raspberries and cooing away to herself.  Shall I leave her when she's like this?  I have done in the past to see if she will get herself back off but she usually then ends up calling for me and I go to her and put the dummy back in and tell her it's time to go back to sleep like what I do to get her down in the first place.  I have in the past just usually got her up and I think this may be where the problem lies - is she used to this short sleep period?  If I now keep perservering to get her back to sleep will she eventually learn to sleep longer or will I forever be getting her back off?  I tend to hold her chest in the end to get her back off and keep it there for a while.  Is this ok to do?

I'm sorry for all the questions but I'm so confused at what I should and shouldn't be doing and if I'm confused then it probably means she's confused.  I don't want to solve one problem and make another!!

[Chicane]

Hi there

Welcome to the boards...don't worry, you can get yourselves out of this rut and we are going to help you...of course, I have a few questions of my own

Is the reflux medicated? Is it under control. Its very difficult to establish a routine with a baby who is suffering reflux. They need so much more help and comfort.

Have you read Tracy's books? They are very handy to have and explain a lot, I recommend you try to get a hold of them.

The 2 min wind down is a ritual that you do for naps and bed time and its exactly the same every single time. Everyone has their own way of doing it. Tracy describes how to do it in her books for small babies. At 7 months you wouldn't be swaddling any more but check out this link...

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64277.0

I found that 20 mins was too long for my son, he didn't want all that fuss so we cut it to 10 mins. he is now 14 months and the whole thing is about 5 mins more or less. I start in the living room, say bye bye living room see you after my nap, bye bye kitchen, up the stairs to the cloud bed, up the stairs up the stairs, here we are at the cloud bed, close the door say bye bye sunshine see you after nap, then I hold him for a few mins stroking his back, shhing, then put him in cot, stroke his back or head for a bit then say see you after nap and leave. You'll find your own way...

Don't implement a dream feed at this age - its some thing for much younger bubs and at this age can make NW (night wakings) worse.

If my son has a cot party (raspberries, chatting) I leave him till he cries out in earnest for me...if its at night time and he does it for an hour I go in and try to get him back to sleep...we all have our own ways - there are no fast rules on it...

Check out these samples here for your age group http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164253.0

And once you've had a look at the samples, keep a log of what happens for a few days when you think you've got your head around it post up what a typical day looks like in an EAS format like the samples and we can start tweaking your day

And here are a ton of other links you may find useful...

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85498.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85134.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64275.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64747.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64402.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64160.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164034.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52283.0

[AJsMumandDad]

Thank you so much for your reply and your kind offer of help - I really need it!

Ashleigh's reflux is medicated - she has been on gaviscon since 8 weeks and it only never seems to work during growth spurts but is otherwise fine.  We did have her sleeping on a 30deg wedge but got rid of this a couple of weeks ago and now elevate the cot instead (but obv not to that angle).

I haven't read the books but have watched all her programs and have read loads on here (when time allows!).  Thanks for the links, have read some but they are all good reading.  Altho reading some sample 7 month old EASY routines make me envious when I see little ones being able to stay awake 3 hours and my lo can only do 2 at a push 

Do you think I should continue doing a night feed at this age or should I try and get her back to sleep without it?  There was a period where I wasn't doing a feed (a couple of months back I think) but then I found from about 3am onwards she would be waking every 45 mins or so and when I fed her, she usually settles back down for a longer sleep.

I have been keeping logs now for over a month to try and establish a pattern (fat chance!!) but kept it up as it helps me look back on how much sleep she's had in a day and when I last fed her etc (baby brain!).  As of Monday I have been doing set feeds at 4 hours so that makes life a bit easier but I really need to get these naps sorted.  Mon went well, Tues ok but yesterday was way off track!  I'm not sure what to give you as there is no 'typical' day - they all vary so much.  I'll give you the last 3 days but I log it as wake, feed, nap - the bit in between feed and nap is usually the activity:

Mon
E = Night feed - 5am
     Wake - 7:15
E = Feed - 7:30 breastfeed, 8:00 solids
S = Nap - 9:10 - woke at 9:40 but I got her back to sleep at 10:40
     Wake - 11:05 (woke her up)
E = Feed - 11:10 breastfeed, 12:00 solids
S = Nap - 12:50 - woke at 1:15 but I got back to sleep at 1:55
     Wake - 3:05 (woke her up)
E = Feed - 3:15 breastfeed
S = Nap - 5:30
     Wake - 6:00
E = Feed - 6:15 solids, 6:45 breastfeed
A = Bath - 7:00
S = Bed - 7:25
She stirred at 8:50, 9:50, 1:30, 3:30 and 3:45 (fed)

Tues
E = Night feed - 3:45am
     Wake - 7:00 (woken up)
E = Feed - 7:15 breastfeed, 8:00 solids
S = Nap - 8:55 - woke at 9:25 but I got her back to sleep at 9:45
     Wake - 10:45
E = Feed - 11:10 breastfeed, 12:00 solids
S = Nap - 12:45
     Wake - 2:05 (was so happy she went for over an hour, I didn't try & get her back to sleep - maybe I should have?)
E = Feed - 3:00 breastfeed
S = Nap - 4:10 (couldn't keep her up any longer - she was getting overtired)
     Wake - 5:00
E = Feed - 5:45 solids, 6:15 breastfeed
A = Bath - 6:50
S = Bed - 7:15
She stirred at 8:20, 3:30, 4:15, 4:50 (fed) and loads after till morning

Weds
E = Night feed - 4:50am
     Wake - 7:00 (altho I think she was awake before this)
E = Feed - 7:15 breastfeed, 8:00 solids
S = Nap - 9:10
     Wake - 10:10 (she woke happy & I left her chatting to herself, she called out for me at 10:30 & I tried to get her back to sleep but at 10:45 she was getting very upset so I got her up as I knew I wouldn't get her back to sleep by 11am and was still happy that again she had gone for an hour)
E = Feed - 11:15 breastfeed, 12:00 solids
S = Nap - 12:30 - I think this was too late (woke at 1pm but I got her back to sleep in 5 mins)
     Wake - 1:50
E = Feed - 3:00 breastfeed
S = Nap - 4:05 (she was clearly overtired and I put her in her cot at 3:30)
     Wake - 4:40
E = Feed - 5:15 solids, 6:00 breastfeed
A = Bath - 6:30
S = Bed - 7:00
She stirred at 8:30, 9:30 (but got herself back off), 3:15 (fed) - I consider this to be a very good night!

What I have been doing for naps is going in at around the 30 min mark and gently holding her arms and this seems to sometimes get her through the sleep cycle and this is where I have longer naps above.  This morning I thought I would leave her and see what happens and sure enough, she woke at the 35 min mark so I have just spent nearly an hour getting her back off.  I don't go straight up to her as she doesn't wake up crying but by the time she 'calls' out for me (which is still not a cry) she just seems wide awake and sometimes I've left her a bit longer while she's calling for me (not crying) but then I don't want her to think I've abandoned her!  She still never goes back off to sleep on her own. 

I'm not sure when she wakes early what my goal is - to try to not intervene much to give her chance to get herself off (never happens) or to intervene to get a longer nap length.  Does it matter that I have my hand on her chest whilst she drifts back off to sleep at this point?  Will she always then need it?  And should I stick with trying to get her through the sleep cycles by holding her arms - again will she always need this?

Thanks Chicane - I really do appreciate your help!
Dana

[Chicane]

Hi love

Because she was 4 weeks premature it might be better to follow a 6 month routine or somewhere in between. It can be hard with preemies to know where they fit developmentally...what are your feelings on her developmental age? Do you feel she is closer to 7 months? or 6?

The average A time for 6 months is 2 hr 25 mins and 3 hrs towards the end of the month. For 7  months its 2 hrs 45 to 3 hrs. Its also around the 6-7 month mark that most LOs work towards dropping the CN (cat nap) and moving to 2 naps. You are still doing 3 naps, once we work out the right A times you will start to do variations on 2 and 3 naps days depending on LOs needs...

The samples are just guides. If you have a look through the birth club thread for your age you will find many parents who are not getting good naps or 3 hrs A time! Everyone is different so just use this as a guide...

Personally, I would continue the night feed for the moment. Its up to you though. I am a weakling and can only tackle one thing at a time, so if it were me I would concentrate on day times and then deal with nights...but if you think you can do it all at once then you can start to wean off the night feeds using shh/pat...and perseverance. If you want to know some ways of doing it let me know and i can give you more details. Another great thing to try is to cluster feed in the late afternoon/early evening. Add another feed somewhere before bed time and/or add morning and/or afternoon tea to her solid intake (I used to bulk out DS yoghurt with baby rice to tank him up) this can help with nights.

Is the paci a prop? Do you have to replug in order for her to sleep? Does she 'need' it? If its a prop its something you are going to have to deal fairly soon...you can take a look at the props board for more guidance there...

Ok now onto routine...your days actually aren't that different and there is a pattern its just that you're getting short naps which has got you in an OT cycle (over tired) The way to beat an OT cycle is to do early BTs (bed time) for a few days, maybe 3, 4 or 5 days. Get her down by 6-6.30pm. Then I suggest you start extending that first morning A time by 5-10 mins over a period of 3 days, go slowly to allow her time to adjust. Lets try an get it closer to the 2.5 hr mark and more in keeping with her age. What I am hoping for that by extending the A times you will get a longer first nap which will set us up better for the rest of the day.

As far as extending naps when they are short, its fine to use shh/pat (or your version of it) instead of PUPD - PUPD can be too overstimulating for many LOs and if you are unable to use it then I think you are fine sticking with shh/pat. Its okay to have a hand on her at this point, the key is to try and do most of the settling in the cot and not in your arms. I don't know how it works exactly but it does and eventually you wont need to be there. She's just started out learning how to do this new way of sleeping so she needs time. After a while, try to comfort her by starting out touching her then moving your hand away and using verbal reassurance (shhing or its nap time or some other sound/words) slowly over time move further away...

When you hold her arms it is because she is still jerking? (the moro reflex) this is a developmental thing that should disappear soon...so if she's still jerking then keep HTTJ (holding through the jolts)

Its going to take a bit of time to show her how to do it cause she's had 7 months doing it one way...if things get too hard, heavy crying etc, and you both get too stressed then stop, let it go, move on to the next thing. Shorten the next A time to compensate for the lost nap and do an early BT.

Let me know what you think/feel about all this...and we'll take it from there

xo

[AJsMumandDad]

Hi Chicane

Yes I would probably say she is closer to 6 months developmentally.  She missed her last cat nap one day (wouldnt go to sleep) and so we moved to the bedtime routine which meant she was up for just over 3 hours and she was a complete mess.  I had to feed her to sleep where she pretty much passed out on my boob!   

I will continue to do the night feed cos I'm a bit the same as you - would prefer to tackle one thing at a time and her awake times / naps are by far more important.  Plus the fact that I really dont mind doing the night feed.

The paci is unfortunately definitely a prop (so made by us I think).  I know it is a big issue in her getting to sleep as when I put her down for a nap or sleep at night, I can hear her take it out and play with it and as soon as she drops it, she calls out for me to get it for her and this can happen 4-5 times before she goes off.  I am 50 / 50 on weaning this cos her little face lights up when I give it her as part of her wind down and I know it is a source of comfort to her.  I am in the process of introducing a soft teddy bear as a lovey so that maybe this could replace the paci in time.  Saying that, I know there have been times when I have heard her awake in the middle of the night blowing raspberries and then she has fallen asleep without any intervention so this must have been without the dummy?!

What's the best way to extend the awake time by 5-10 mins?  With Ashleigh-Jane it's hard to keep her up longer than she wants to be as she starts crying for sleep then gets overtired then it takes her longer to drop off to sleep and her being really fidgety in doing so, which then leads to a 30-min nap.  I did the quiz btw and she turned out to be 'Touchy' - prob could have guessed that really!  I get paranoid about her being overtired cos I know it makes putting her down for naps an even bigger nightmare than usual so I'm wondering whether its me rushing to put her down that's led to her having short awake times.  Its a vicious circle isnt it?!?!

Yesterday started off reasonably ok and she even napped for 1 hour 25 mins for the second nap without waking in the middle (altho I did hold her arm between cycles) but she still woke up crying at first.  However it went well off in the afternoon as I visited my parents and think she got too over-stimulated.  This resulted in her last nap being at 5:25 for 30 mins (she woke from the last one at 2:45) which I think she was overtired for.  Then we did the bedtime routine and put her in the cot at 7:30 but she didnt get to sleep till 7:55.  Saying that, it was the most settled first part of the night she has had in ages, she didn't wake until 11pm but when she did she was very upset, I picked her up to sooth her but she kept trying to lean backwards and was crying with tears and all.  I ended up giving her a little feed to settle her down and she was awake an hour in total.  The same thing happened at 2:30ish and again at 5am but at this one I didn't feed her, I just rocked her to sleep in my arms which I know you are not supposed to do but she doesnt normally wake up that upset.  I am hoping that it was down to teething but can never be sure.  I think I am now feeling a ridge on her bottom gum so hope its a tooth popping through at last - she seems to have been teething forever! The problem here is we both didn't wake up until 8am instead of our normal 7.  What do you do with the EASY routine in this instance - just move everything forward an hour or try and get that hour back somewhere (like bringing feeds forward 1/2 hour)?  I don't want to be putting her to bed at 8pm again tonight as this goes against your advice of putting her to bed early.

With regards to holding her, I am not sure if it is the moro reflex.  I seem to just need to hover over one arm so that when she fidgets and her arms flails (usually to go to her face so maybe connected to teething too?), it can't get past my arm and this seems to help her go through the cycles.  I am going to continue to do this I think cos it works and is a lot easier than trying to get her back to sleep!

Again I can't thank you enough Chicane for your help!
Dana

[Chicane]

Hi Dana

Big hugs to you. I just want to start out by saying this takes time. She's had till now doing it one way and now she has to learn another (and you're learning too!) So she is going to be a bit confused and cranky for a while, but it will be worth it for everyone in the end. She's a touchy too, so these changes are going to have to be made very slowly and very gently.

Lets work as if she is 6 months old but keep in mind she may vary.

At 6 months the CN (catnap) starts to be dropped. Some days you'll get it and it will be easy and others she will resist and I wouldn't bother if its too much effort. On the days she missed is you do early bed time.

When increasing A time with a touchy you do it very slow. And you start with the morning A time and you work over a period of 4-5 day or more. You need to be mindful of her signs....Check out these links
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=120362.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0

Also there is a support thread for those with touchy babies here http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=175217.0 you can get lots of tips and support there.

Generally speaking waking up cranky from a nap that is less then 1.5 hrs indicates OT and waking up happy from a short nap indicates UT (undertired) However, with a touchy, she might just wake up cranky anyway - the shock of being awake! Time will tell.

If you have a hard night and you both get a little sleep in then just start the day from when you wake up and adjust accordingly, you can still try and do an early bed time...say you wake up at 8am then aim to get her to BT by 7-7.30pm...make sense? Some people say to wake at 7am no matter what but personally, when you are in the midst of training I think every scrap of sleep you can get is too precious...don't worry too much about it. Once naps are sorted these things will even out.

The paci is a problem...argh! I hate to say it but you probably need to slowly start weaning that because it seems likes its actually making her sleep worse. Check out the FAQs on the props page and feel free to post there - let them know you have an EASY thread too in case one of the mods there wants to link to this post. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=28.0

As I said, she's a touchy, and making these changes is going to take time and you'll need a lot of patience and compassion (not always easy!) but keep in mind that what you are doing is helping her learn how to be an independent sleeper - this is a skill she will have for life! 

keep on with the log, and keep me posted

xo

[AJsMumandDad]

Hi Chicane

I appreciate it will take time but tbh, since I started on Monday trying to extend her naps / getting her back to sleep if she wakes early, I already notice a big difference in her as she is so much more happier so it really drives me to keep going.

I can’t imagine her not having a catnap at this stage but I guess it will come in time.  When you say she will resist and you wouldn’t bother, is that after you have put her in the cot and she just won’t go to sleep?  Would you then just get her back out and start the bedtime routine?  What about if her naps have been poor and she wakes from the catnap crying, should I try and get her back to sleep in this scenario?

One of the main problems I have in the mornings is that I don’t always know what time she wakes up and she more often than not is awake before me (I have my own sleep issues!) but is happy in the cot just chatting to herself.  This makes it hard to know if I am extending her awake time or not.  Sometimes it’s hard to know if I am even putting her down under tired or overtired as I am not very good at reading her signs – she is a tough cookie to read!  This morning I woke at 7:20am and she was already awake and then when we were up she rubbed her eye a couple of times at 8:10am!  I don’t know if this was a tired sign but I still proceeded to give her breakfast.  She then started crying at 8:35 so I started the wind down at about 8:40 and put her in the cot at 8:55.  She was very lively and unsettled and didn’t fall asleep until 9:10 but I’m left wondering whether this was because she was OT, UT or whether this is just her settling herself down as she can be like this for a lot of naps. 
 
As it was she only slept for 35 mins and woke happy so I gave up trying to get her back to sleep very quickly (within 5 mins) and sent her out with her dad to visit Nan’s so I’m feeling bad that I’ve deviated from the routine so quickly and will probably have an overtired baby come later on. 

Btw, is it ok for dad to have a different nap routine to mum?  He is happy to put her down for naps come the weekend but does things a little different to me.  Will that confuse her or will she know it’s cos it’s dad and not mum?

I am still giving some thought to the paci - I know it's causing some issues but I'm so scared to even think of taking it away from her!!

On a positive note, Friday went well with her having 3 hours and 10 mins of day sleep.  I still didn’t manage to get her to bed early cos of the timing of the catnap and because we woke at 8am, but she was asleep at 7:55pm and didn’t wake until 2:50am.  I gave her the dummy and she went straight back off.  She then woke at 3:50 for a feed and that was the only 2night wakings – a brilliant night for us!! 

Yesterday she did wake early very briefly from both naps but I was able to get her back to sleep pretty much straight away and she ended up having a total of 3 hr 20 mins day sleep.  She woke I think at about 7am and was asleep by 7:20pm.  She woke 3 times during the night (at about 11:30, 2:30 and 5ish) but didn’t have a night feed at all.

It’s all a big improvement, especially as I said with her being happier when she is awake - I just hope I haven’t put us back to square one with today’s start!!

Thanks again Chicane!

[Chicane]

Hi love

Well, that's great to hear that she is already responding well to the changes you are making.

With the CN if she is still happily taking it then continue doing it. I would say if she starts to resist it and you've given it a good go at trying to get her down then drop it...whats a good go? As long as you could be bothered, have the energy for. If she is happy to just be in her cot awake and chat to herself then I think i would leave her to have a little down time (I'm not sure though as my DS was never like that) I think its up to you. If she wakes up crying from the CN and the CN has been at least 30 -45 mins then just get her up. The CN is just a little top up to get them to bed time.

In the mornings do you think she has been happy in her cot for a while? I kind of find it hard that she would be happy hanging out there for a really long time without calling out to you...that would make her an Angel baby and not a Touchy! Maybe she has Angel tendencies but her routine is not right so she's all touchy about it. To be honest though, I don't reckon she would have been up that long. Do you have a monitor in your room? Could DH be in charge of listening out for her in the mornings?

Oh and another thing just to make it harder for you, tired signs start to become a little bit unreliable round this age! Its a sick joke isn't it?

Don't worry about deviating from the routine - these things happen, people got stuff to do you know...its going to be like this every-so-often. If you have a day where the routine has suffered try your best to make the following day a little more structured.

Build up your rituals and confidence before you tackle the paci...get some info and support from the props boards. Does she use it to get to sleep and then keep it in her mouth the whole time? Does it drop out and if so does that wake her up and you need to frequently re plug? If she's using it to get to sleep and it drops out and she's okay with that then its not too much of a prop. If you have to constantly replug then yeah, thats a problem. You could start by waiting till she is asleep then pulling the paci out and taking it out of the room...

Its okay for different carers to have different ways of doing things. They figure it out pretty quick that dad is different to mum is different to Nan...however, I would try your best to keep the overall idea the same, the order of things, and the length of time it takes.

You will have good days and bad days. On the bad days just try to keep in mind its one day, what happens is not your fault, nor the baby's. Its just what babies do. Remind yourself that the next day is a new start. The premise of BW is to read the signs, observe whats happened before, and act appropriately. The routine is flexible....

I think you are doing really well and in such a short time to see so much improvement is remarkable. You should be proud of where you are right now...

keep me posted

x

[AJsMumandDad]

I spoke too soon!  I feel like I'm back to square one

Yesterday was not a good day - as I mentioned she only had a 35 min nap in the morning (waking at 9:45) before I sent her and OH out for a visit to nans.  They came back for 11:30 where I gave her a bf and she was looking tired (so no solids) but it took till 12:20 for her to go to sleep for her next nap.  I made sure I got her back to sleep when she woke at the 30 min mark and she was asleep then till 1:55 (so about 1hr 35 min nap).  We then went to the supermarket (big mistake I think - too much in one day seen as tho most days we dont even go out!), a feed when we got back at 3:20 and then trying to get her to have her last nap which was impossible after trying until 5pm so we got her up and did the bedtime routine (giving her some solids first as she had none since breakfast).  She went to sleep at 6:25pm but stirred every hour upto 11pm ish quite upset.  I fed her when she woke at 2:30am and then I think I heard her at 6am but I went back to sleep and woke up again at 7:20am so goodness knows how long she had been awake.

Today has not been any better.  After not knowing how long she had been up I had to help her quite a bit to get to sleep - holding her hand and rubbing her chest.  She went off at 9am but woke at 9:30, I got her back off at 10am and she woke at 10:55 so that was not too bad.  However, after a bf, I had to take her to the Drs for a rash on her belly. On the walk back (an hour after she woke), she yawned 4 or 5 times!  I was going to give her solids when we got back but I didn't think I had time to prepare any so put her on for another bf before her nap.  I put her down for her nap at 12:50 and she went to sleep at 1:55 (!) after a lot of crying and taking her out of the cot to give her some paracetamol.  She then woke at 2:25 and whilst trying to get her back to sleep she got very upset - her cries are so hard and angry!  I perservered and got her back to sleep at 3:10.  She woke at 4:20 cos I couldn't bring myself to wake her after that ordeal.  So I gave her another bf and solids before bath and bed but at 6:15pm she still looked alert and happy so we delayed the bath a bit.  OH is up there now putting her down (he always puts her to bed after I dress her, feed and read a story) and I can already hear her crying!  I think we left it way too long again.  We'll just have to see how tonight goes!  

I am pretty sure that teething is playing a big part in this but as with anything, cannot be 100% sure how much.  The thing I've noticed with Ash tho is that when she goes to bed early, she wakes early.

I am confused tho!  I know for the first awake time I am working towards increasing it to 2.5 hrs but what am I supposed to do for the ones after - go off her signs or work off a set time?  If it's a set time, what should it be?  Everyday she is showing less and less tired signs and her awake times are getting longer but then I'm worried she may be overtired when it maybe that she isn't tired enough??  It is driving me crazy!!  As we have never had a routine, is the 4-hour EASY the right one to start with?  

She is still in her cot next to my bed atm.  We were thinking of putting her in her own room over the Xmas hols when OH is off work but this is again (like the paci) something I am reluctant to do when she has so many night wakings (any good links on how best to make this transition?).  OH sleeps in the spare room during the week when he has to go to work.  I have heard her before now be awake and happy in the cot for an hour in the middle of the night and not call out for me.  I am that sleep deprived (cos I can't always sleep even when she is) that I can't wake up easy in the morning.  OH has said that he will set his alarm early and listen out on the monitor and wake me when she wakes to see if the days can get off to a better start!  

I'm feeling a bit gutted with the last couple of days after the good end to last week but will as you say see tomorrow as a new start and try again!

[Chicane]

Hi love

Well, this is it, its always like this in the start, one step forward two back. Don't be too hard on yourself. You are both still learning your techniques and methods and this new way of doing things.

I had DS in the room with me until the end of the 6th month (DH slept on the sofa for a long time too!) The transition was not as bad as I thought. In fact it was like he didn't even care. These things always seem much larger than they actually are. Especially when you are sleep deprived and in the middle of sleep training. Go easy on yourself.

Tired signs become unreliable...don't fret.

Ok, so lets get hard core. Start to follow the routine for a 6 month old. As far as A times and naps are concerned. You need to take a week out to try and be as consistent as possible. You may want to just drop every things for a few days to psyche yourself up for it and get some energy back. Start fresh on a Friday so you have DH support over the weekend, enlist friends or family to bring shopping in and come to give you a break if you can. Stick with it, you are teaching her, she hates it but in the end she will thrive on it and you will get the rest you need. If you get a short nap, extend using shh/pat and PUPD (if needed) it takes time for this to work - extend for as long as you can cope without losing and getting upset or angry. If she cries really hard take her out of the room for a min. You may need to adjust the shh/pat to suit her - she might not like it the way its described my son liked soft humming and gentle head stroking. If you get to her sleep and she sleeps over the time then I would let her as she is catching up.

Early bed time cures almost everything. If she wakes earlier try to get her down again treat it as an NW if she wont just go with it for the moment but keep things low key, in the cot/room until its the right time to start the day. The mornings will sort out once naps are sorted.

I have been where you are, its awful, its so hard and tiring and you just want someone to come and take over...but i can guarantee that it passes and it gets better and in a short while when you have an independent sleeper and a whole bunch of skills and tricks up your sleeve to fall back on you will be so proud of yourself and the whole family

big love

x

[AJsMumandDad]

Hi Chicane

Thank you ever so much - your kind words and support really do go a long way, especially when the going is tough.  Sunday and yesterday were both tough days as you can guess from my post but I'm trying to stay positive as I can and stick with it.

This is the routine I am trying to implement (as best as possible):

E - 7am bf, 8am solids
A
S - 9am (will try to extend)
E - 11am bf, 12noon solids
A
S - 1pm
E - 3pm bf,
A
S - Catnap between 5-6pm
E - 6:00 solids, 6:45bf
A - Bath - 7:00pm
S - 7:30

Is this a good starting point?  If we wake up late, I will just move everything forward and see how the day pans out.  If she won't take a catnap easy then we will just move to bedtime routine.

With regards to shh/pat, do you only do this when she is crying or all the time she is awake and you want her to go back to sleep as most of the time she is awake but happy but is waking herself up more?  My trick of holding her to get her through the sleep cycles doesn't appear to work anymore 

Again I can't thank you enough for your support - you've been great.
Dana

[Chicane]

Hi Dana

Its my pleasure to offer you as much support as I am able. Remember, its a process, and you both need to work through the steps...its going to be all right...promise!

Your routine is a good starting point. I would try perhaps to make the A times more 2 hrs 15-20 mins...that the least amount on the average for 6 months.

Generally speaking waking up happy from a short nap means she went down under tired and the A time needs to be increased. Waking up cranky indicates OT (overtired) and the A time was too long or she is in an OT cycle (or teething can do it too)

Shh/pat is something we do to extend naps - whether there are tears or not. Occasionally when my DS would wake from a short nap happy I was able to extend it and get him back to sleep with shh/pat...

I want to tell you that when i was where you are and things got really hard I just gave up for the afternoon. Its okay to do this. Its okay to say 'You know what, I am beat, I give up' when you are exhausted, angry or upset. If things are really bad and no one has had any sleep then you APOP - thats accidental parenting on purpose. That when you do what ever it takes to get some rest, car ride, pram ride, feed to sleep, dummy - whatever you need so you both get some sleep. Like I said its a process. In her books Tracy says things like 'it will take 3 days to do this or that' well, it took her 3 days but she'd been doing it for 20 plus years, and she didn't have an emotional connection to the babies she was working with. It takes us mere mortals much longer

You are doing really well, believe me

xx

PS I am going away on Friday until Jan 10. Another mod will be taking over my posts so don't worry you will still have someone here. i will try to look in every-so-often but i will not have much net access during that time.

[AJsMumandDad]

Hi Chicane

Ok great, I will try and extend activity times to 2 hrs 15 mins and see what happens.  She has been waking from short naps happy and then when I try and get her back to sleep she seems to get angry so perhaps she's telling me that she doesn't need anymore sleep?!  Extending A times does sound a good idea.

I have two more questions (sorry)!  When she has a short nap and I can't get her back to sleep or a short catnap in the evening, do I need to then shorten the A time following it?  I think I read somewhere that they can't last as long on a short nap (and obviously this is where all my problems started).  If so, how long do you suggest I cut it short by?  Also, when she wakes early in the morning - like she woke at 6:40 this morning but we got up at 7:00 - do you start her A time from 6:40 when she woke up or 7:00 when I got her out of the cot?

It's good to hear that it's ok to give up once in a while.  I think I get so caught up in 'you have to do this' that I feel I can't and that of course leads to the frustration, upset and anger.  So thanks for that bit of advice, it's nice to hear it!

I think a lot of it is going to be trial and error with her A times but I am determined to get a nap longer than 35 mins without my intervention, however long it takes!!!

Hope you enjoy your break over Christmas and New Year.

Thanks Again
Dana

[Chicane]

Hi love

When she has a short nap and I can't get her back to sleep or a short catnap in the evening, do I need to then shorten the A time following it?

Yes. Except of course if you are my son, then you want to do the same A time as always...go figure!

Also, when she wakes early in the morning - like she woke at 6:40 this morning but we got up at 7:00 - do you start her A time from 6:40 when she woke up or 7:00 when I got her out of the cot?

Interesting question. Many would say start at 7am but personally i am inclined to start from 6.40am...cause that's what worked best for us. You need to consider your LOs temperament...will 20 mins make a huge difference to her? Perhaps a bit of experimentation is needed...

It's good to hear that it's ok to give up once in a while.  I think I get so caught up in 'you have to do this' that I feel I can't and that of course leads to the frustration, upset and anger.  So thanks for that bit of advice, it's nice to hear it!

Oh yeah, defo. I mean, sometimes you just can't sustain it especially if you are dead tired. You know what else is okay to do...drink a really large glass of wine after LOs are in bed. Seriously, its okay to do that once in a while. i give you permission!

much love
x