Ugly, 9.5/10 hr nights, what are my options?

[okinawamama]

well, that may be what we get regardless of what I try, so maybe I should just surrender and go with it

I think you're right Wendy, hopefully I'll just *know* when it's time to do some nap cutting, and hopefully he'll just comply (ha ha, but maybe!). I'm shooting to get around 12hrs in him per day any way that I can. Hopefully he goes along with this plan.

**I can't believe that I'm getting ready to do this all again, starting with a newborn. YIKES! ***

Thanks ladies for your help and support. Wendy, I hope that Finn's great sleep habits are a new thing and not a total fluke! We are up for an exciting fun filled party day tomorrow. my sweet boy is almost 2!!!

[Khalam's Mama]

Have a fab party.
Newborn? Are you expecting? Congrats,
The schedule Wendy suggested looks quite like K's who only does 10.5-11hr nights and 1.5-2hrs nap. i would love 12hr night plus but sometimes you have to take what you get I guess.
Good luck.

[okinawamama]

KM: yup, expecting again. We are actually due 5 days apart, I'm 34 weeks today

[Khalam's Mama]

Wow so you could do with as much sleep as possible too!

[Tweakster]

Best wishes Steph - not long now!  Let's hope when DC2 comes along is when Ambrose magically gets it :-). The first 2 years seem to be toughest on sleep - after that we have other battles but I'm really hoping these kiddos will give sleep a rest (pun intended!)

[babybarr]

How's it all going?

[okinawamama]

Thanks Laura for checking back, you're too sweet!

We're still plugging along, nothing better really, but nothing worse either.

We still get 10hr nights on average (with taking at least 20-30 minutes to fall asleep at night), sometimes more sometimes less and then an 1.5 nap, again sometimes more sometimes less. He sometimes throws me for a complete loop, will do an 11hr night, and I think we're back on track, but then I try and duplicate the day and we're back to having a short night for some reason.

 He's a complete joy during the day and seems to handle the amount of sleep he's getting so we go with it. He also seems to make up for his short nights by throwing in the occasional longer night every once in a while, so again, here we stay, not really trying to "fix" it.

[Tweakster]

While there is a nap I think options are limited.

I dare say we are getting more sleep from him now than ever BUT we had to wake him twice this week after 7 am (I know - to have such problems eh) but it is a problem because a) it means we have to rush and b) it means that he's not happy about waking which isn't good either.  So last night we did an experiment of leaving the black out blinds UP and only closing the curtains.  Well wouldn't you know he woke before or near 6 this morning, and that was after faffing around at his bedtime and not asleep until 8:20 ish.  So a short night for us here.  But he's still knocking off the nearly 2 hr nap every day so I don't see that we can do anything.

And he still needs that nap, oh does he ever lol  We tried a no nap day in London when we were traveling, it was pretty hideous by the end of the day including us walking holding  a screaming kid in the west end near Albert Hall.

So holding pattern I think. 

Steph I think as soon as LO arrives his sleep is going to change anyway.  Hang in there!

[okinawamama]

Grr, clearly this kid is on the lower end of sleep needs because he did one of his fluke 11 hr nights and is now refusing his nap. He's been in there for over an hour and is singing, jumping and playing....everything but sleeping. I always thought of him as lower sleep needs, but 11hrs a day (which he's done in the past on his 9.5 hr night and 1.5 naps) is ridiculous.

[okinawamama]

Alright ladies, another question.

This evening, my husband and I got into a "discussion" about how long it's taking for Ambrose to all asleep.  Both of us are feeling terrible for him that it's taking him about an hour to fall asleep at night. Ambrose is being pretty great about it, and rarely cries, but he tosses and turns and tosses and turns for SO long at night. Is he UT? My husband would like to push bedtime back to at least 830, but I'm just not sure. I thought we should cut the nap instead, but my DH pointed out that in the past, it doesn't seem to really make a difference, even last night, when he had an OT 50 minute nap (after nap refusal) he still took about 40 minutes to fall asleep.

He hasn't always taken this long, but in the past month or so, he has started to. Are his sleep needs just dropping so much that he needs a significantly longer A time before bed? How do you manage a day when it seems he needs a minimum of 6 hrs of A time before every falling asleep?

Our schedule lately has been

7:15ish awake (later wake time, but same ammt of overall sleep)
1:00ish ( often times later because I'm afraid of nap refusal, so 1:15/1:30)
3:00ish wake up ( sometimes closer to 2:30, just depends. )
8:00ish bedtime ( often times closer to 8:15) however it takes him at least 40ish minutes to fall asleep often times more and like tonight, he fell asleep at 9:15

I'd say we're averaging around 11.5ish hours of sleep depending on the day.

So, what can I do to help him fall asleep faster? Is my DH right and we should push bedtime back? Do you think I should try cutting the nap again? I've looked at other toddler sleep schedules, but it seems that many children are on the higher to average sleep needs, and I think that this little guy just is on the lower end. BW sleep totals have ALWAYS been a pipe dream for me!

[babybarr]

I would push bedtime back.... maybe Wendy will suggest something different though?

[Tweakster]

Pipe dreams all the way here too, as you know.  Now since teeth have been fully in our lives have been infinitely better.  Does Ambrose now have all teeth?

So your options are really to cut nap or move bedtime.  I don't actually think it's a huge deal that he's taking the time to get to sleep.  He's not unhappy about it so best not to pity him.  We have now been letting Finn take a book to bed - of course it's too dark to read lol but he thinks he's reading to sleep.
 
I look at it like these kids really don't have down time like we do.  They go full tilt until bed and then need to lie there processing their day a bit.  

So I guess at this stage of the game I probably wouldn't do anything.  Nap refusal is a different story though - I think if he's refusing his nap then you may have to think about what to do.  How often is he refusing?

Right now our day looks like:
Awake - so variable, anytime between 6-7
Nap - 12:30/12:45 - 2:30
Bedtime - asleep by 8:30 latest

We need at least 5.5 hrs to nap and then a good 6 hrs to bedtime after such a chunky nap.  Or if he wakes closer to 6 am, we end up with a super long morning and then he's often tired around 7:30 but we still put him to bed at 8.

Forgot to add, do your bedtime routine, put him to bed and that's it.  No monitor.  If he needs you, you will hear him.  Don't continue to monitor when he falls asleep.  Just accept that bedtime is bedtime and your night starts at 8.  This has also made our lives infinitely better.

I have to put my faith in all we have done so far - all the teaching independent sleep, all the logging and considering sleep needs.  It's done.  I know that Tracy would not want us glued to monitors at this age, or worrying too much about sleep totals and exact timing.  It's about knowing your kid - is he happy during the day? Eating well? Developing well?  If so then really you have done all you can do, it's time to take the pressure off and give yourself some Y time.  Since DH and I have gotten in that mindset, we have all been happier, including Finn.

[clazzat]

I'm not really an expert on low sleep needs kids, but I know that my dd2 does just need some wind down time at the end of the day, so she takes 20-40 minutes to go to sleep (if she goes to sleep more quickly than that then she is OT and we will have NWs) because that's just the way she is.  I decided a while ago that I wasn't going to stress about any time that she was lying quietly in a dark room because that is still rest for her, and I have done all I can at that point to get her to go to sleep, iyswim?  The other thing I would say is are you sure that he is not asleep when he is tossing and turning?  When we went away on holiday the girls were sharing a room and we would be able to hear dd2 tossing and turning and we thought that she wasn't asleep and would disturb dd1, but every time we went in it turned out that she was actually asleep, it just wasn't quiet.  So in her case we found she was getting much more sleep than we thought.

[okinawamama]

Wendy, you're bang on with trusting in all the hard work done thus far. He is an AMAZING little boy. My hubby and I were talking at lunch that he's incredibly happy,well behaved, smart ( he recognizes every letter in the alphabet!!!)  and it is a complete and total joy being his parents right now ( I know this sounds silly....). I love love love the age he is right now and if I could stop time, I totally would. It's amazing. So, I have to go with my gut and what I see and experience day to day with him and assume that although the hours he sleeps on paper are low, he must be self regulating.....right? 



He does not have all his teeth. I don't see anything in the way of 2yr molars....I know that will play a part, so I try and keep it in mind. Medicating does nothing to affect how long it takes him to fall asleep, so I'm not sure if pain is contributing or not.

I really thought the nap refusal was a one time fluke thing due to the "long" 11hr night, because yesterday after a 10hr night, he went down just fine and slept for 1.5hrs. Today however, another 10hr night and we've had some nap time refusal again (only about 20ish minutes though, so not really a refusal, but not his  normal out in 3 minutes either). I just can't get a read off him. His refusal isn't angry or crying, he plays, sings, jumps ( I can hear the springs on the mattress) and seems like he's throwing himself a sleep strike party in there!

Bedtime is much more quiet and low key. Talking to his stuffed animal, kicking or running his arms along the crib slats, talking to himself.....all with long moments of silence mixed in....no jumping or loud activity like at nap time.

 

[clazzat]

Could he be OT?  I know you say he is low sleep needs, but sometimes something takes it out of them (GS, teething, exciting day) and it can throw them off for a bit, and if he hasn't had good nights and naps to make it up then he might be OT.  My dd1 went through a phase of bedtime and nap refusal and it was very much OT - I didn't mention it before because she is very high sleep needs and it is difficult to gauge whether what works for high sleep needs works for low sleep needs as well, yk?, but maybe you could try an earlier nap to see if that helps at all.