The dreaded 45 min nap starting w/ my 3 week old ???

[tigerlilly905]

Hi Ladies,

So DS2 is starting things a little early and I'm finding the past few days we've been dealing with 45 min naps already.    Has anyone else's l/o's started the 45 min naps this young?  We're doing independent sleep teaching by putting him down drowsy (but awake) and also using shh/pat/paci ect. We're following a pretty good EASY (he's basically doing the sample from BWSAYP pg 25 - although this has been trickier since the 45 min nap started a few days ago.)  He's also showing Spirited tendencies. 

We dealt with the 45 min nap with Ds1 at around 3 months (if I remember correctly), and we got through it doing shh/pat & HTTJ.  I'm finding however, it's alot trickier this time around being able to do those things with Ds1 running around and needing my attention as well.  Any advice? Am I crazy to think that this is starting so early? I'm still working on getting a solid EASY so I can't really do much tweaking yet, I don't think anyways

Cheers,
Rebecca 

[jay2yay]

I didn't start BW until my LO was 4 weeks old so his naps were all over the place anyway. So I might not be much help to you but is he settling when you shush/pat once he wakes and does he go back to sleep?

[tigerlilly905]

is he settling when you shush/pat once he wakes and does he go back to sleep?

*Most* of the time... but other times it's like he gets angry that I'm not picking him up, iykwim?  Then he gets so worked up I have no choice but to pick him up, and at that point its hit and miss, he either settles instantly and goes back to sleep (which is great!), or wakes up completely and at that point it's basically impossible to get him back to sleep, so I start our next "A" early in the hopes he'll show tired signs early so we can catch up during the next nap...

Also, I'm finding his mantra cry tricky and it can quickly escalate to a full blown meltdown. So it's hard to judge whether to go in to try and settle him, or if he will do it on his own.  He has settled himself on his own quite a few times while he's doing a mantra cry, but since these 45 min naps started I've found him resisting the whole process So confusing. You'd think it would be easier the second time around   Just goes to show every baby is different!

[jay2yay]

Well he's still so young, and I know you have your DS1 running around, but it seems maybe he still needs a bit of training before he can settle himself every nap. Do you HTTJ for the 10 and 20 marks? My LO would have never napped well if I didn't do this for several weeks after starting BW. Again, I can't even imagine what it's like having two LO's, but he just might need more help from you during the beginning of his naps. Or maybe HTTJ at the 40/45 min mark? Since it's the beginning of the next sleep cycle.

I've learned with my LO that it actually helps if I go into the mantra cry rather than letting it go on and on. He just seems to need some reassurance. I hardly shush/pat or do anything b/c I don't want to become a prop but just stand there maybe with a hand on him until he seems good. But at the same time, I also don't go in for every mantra cry if I can tell 100% it won't escalate. It's just getting to know our LO's quirks! So confusing sometimes!

[tigerlilly905]

He doesn't seem to have too much trouble with the 10/20 min mark.. I sometimes hear him cry out then, but he settles himself. HttJ at the 40/45 min mark could help, but it's tricky to do all the time with Ds1 around tbh.

I think I might be underestimating some of his "A" times, but it's so hard to tell... sometimes he can make it 1.5 hrs awake no problem, and still have a 45 min nap...

He's definitely catching up on sleep this afternoon, as we had a bad AM for naps... hopefully he'll be caught up by B/T and we can start fresh tomorrow.

[Kiwi_one]

I also started BW later -- when DD1 was 4 months -- but being spirited there may be some insights to be found there.

How much time are the E and A portions of the cycle taking? Short naps with resistance often happen in spiriteds because they need slightly more A time, but that would depend on how much he's getting already. An UT waking in a spirited can manifest like an OT waking in another baby (with frustrated crying) because they dislike being in bed longer than necessary
Mantra cries in spiriteds are particularly difficult to isolate. Some people find they end up responding to all crying because it can all sound so loud and angry. But as a general rule, I think spiriteds do better if a mantra or fussing isn't interrupted because they find the interaction very stimulating. My DD would never ever settle with us in her room, at 4 months and now at 18.

Do you black out the room and use white noise? Both often end up being absolutely necessary for spiriteds. He may be rousing between cycles and finding there's too much interesting stuff to want to go back to sleep now he's more aware.

Just saw your reply about A times. Hard to say but it may still be an A-time issue and he just needs slightly longer times consistently to want more sleep. How does he sleep overnight?

[bug_blues70]

Hey Rebecca! Yes, I go in at the first noise too and put my hand on his back and/or replace paci if I think that will help. It helps him if he doesn't wake up fully, and also, you know I have to see if he has a burp (now days I can usually tell by how he is squirming).

TBH, I wouldn't even bother with HTTJ or W2S just yet if I were you. I'd actually just add on another 10 min or so to his atime. He sounds UT to me, and I know your boys are always ahead of the curve as far as sleep needs... What is his current atime? IIWY, I would start from scratch tomorrow and add 10 min to his first atime and see if his first nap improves. I just did that with Milo this morning and he slept 2 hrs instead of 55 min. (course he's over 3 months) If I'm not mistaken, spirited temperaments are often lower sleep needs anyway, aren't they? And that would be on top of your family history of low sleep needs...

posted while you posted...

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Hey there Rebecca...

I agree, sounds like he needs more A time over the day and that his little spirited self is getting the best of him! I would consistently bump the As for a few days and see if that helps.  I think you're doing blackout and white noise but if you're not I'd do that, too. 

[~Sara~]

We didn't start BW until DS was 7wo, and was doing 1h naps   I totally get where you're coming from!

When you do the shh/pat, do yuo put him down pretty much asleep?  At this point, it's still OK to do that.  He might need some more help learning to fall asleep, iyswim.

[tigerlilly905]

Thanks so much for responding ladies! It's been a frustrating few days! 

Ds1 is Touchy, so I'm familiar with having a difficult sleeper   - but that's also why we did start with a white noise machine and darkening the room for Ds2 this early on.  The darkening is key.. and I kind of think it isn't quite dark enough though, since he's still in our room (in his basinet) and we don't have "true" black out blinds in our room.  With Ds1 we had to literally pin up darkening shades in his room that wouldn't open for the first 6 months b/c he was so sensitive to light/visual stimulation and it would completely disrupt his sleep.  Guess we might have to go more that route this time too...

An UT waking in a spirited can manifest like an OT waking in another baby (with frustrated crying) because they dislike being in bed longer than necessary Mantra cries in spiriteds are particularly difficult to isolate. Some people find they end up responding to all crying because it can all sound so loud and angry. But as a general rule, I think spiriteds do better if a mantra or fussing isn't interrupted because they find the interaction very stimulating.

This sounds *exactly* like Ds2!  He almost seems annoyed sometimes when I'm trying to soothe his crying, I guess it must be stimulating him too much!  It's such a hard balance to find though, b/c I don't want to let him "cry it out" if he truly needs me, and like you said, his mantra cry can very quickly escalate.

He sounds UT to me, and I know your boys are always ahead of the curve as far as sleep needs... What is his current atime? IIWY, I would start from scratch tomorrow and add 10 min to his first atime and see if his first nap improves. I just did that with Milo this morning and he slept 2 hrs instead of 55 min. (course he's over 3 months) If I'm not mistaken, spirited temperaments are often lower sleep needs anyway, aren't they? And that would be on top of your family history of low sleep needs...

I know, having another l/o with low sleep needs doesn't seem fair!   Currently his A time can be anywhere between 1hr 10 mins to 1hr 30 mins.  I'm hesitant to let it go past the 1.5 hr mark for fear of OT, but of course, I always hit issues with Ds1 b/c I was afraid of OT and he usually just needed more A time.  I guess I'm just wary as well b/c I know Ds2 won't be ready for a 4 hour EASY just yet, b/c he can't make it that far for his feeds.. but having said that, if I let him extend his A times, I guess the E's have to fall into place at some point?  Argh, it's tricky already! I know we'll get there eventually.  I think tomorrow I'll give the longer A times a go and see where we're at. 

How does he sleep overnight?

Well, in general, he's great at night.  B/t is between 7-7:30, and he's pretty consistant with his night feeds - about every 3 hours.  He'll feed, burp and go back to sleep.  Last night however, b/c we had had our first day of 45 min naps, he was all over the place and it really disrupted his nights.  Today, since I knew what was going on, I made sure he caught up on the sleep he missed in the morning this afternoon so he was good by b/t. FX we are back on track and can start fresh tomorrow. 

I guess I will also have to wonder over to the "spirited babies support thread"... seems I'll have my hands full with a Touchy Toddler and a Spirited NB!

[eml2512]

Can I just say, well done you for starting so early? DS is 9 weeks and I'm only now in some kind of mindset to try this with him. But this could also be due to recovery tme after emergency c section and then we moved house when ds was 1.5 weeks old. Like you, having difficulty when DD is around. Have you checked the 2 under 2 board for other mums in your stuation?

[*Liz*]

A lot of my short napping with Megan was OS. A time made so little difference really, and with a toddler underfoot I could rarely get it right as obviously they both have their needs to be met.

What I did in the end was extend the pm nap as that was when DS was asleep and I have the time. I used AP to extend as DD was very very windy and was waking with tummy aches. It did work though - when DD was about 3/4 mths she started sleeping a long nap without my extending. I think it still helped to get her body used to needing long sleeps.

I cheated with the sling a lot as well, but it doesn't seem as though you are really in that position yet  .

Another thing I REALLY underestimated at the time was hunger - she would go 2.5 hrs between feeds but still short napped. I think she was getting peckish and was too hungry to transition, but OK once she was up iyswim? I ended up feeding before sleeps as she got older as she just bust every nap without it. Total opposite to a prop issue - fed to sleep she would nap for 2 hrs - put down awake 35 mins every time. DD is angel/ textbook though, and I know a lot of babies would run into issues this way.

Are you tandem feeding though?? If you are then hunger could certainly be a factor. Plus all the trillion growth spurts at this sort of age  .

I honestly do think they are too young to be consistent at this age though.

I think needing picking up is also very normal as part of the transition from womb to world, and they just develop a bigger tolerance for shh/ptt as they get a bit older.

[tigerlilly905]

Thank you SO much for your imput ladies!!  

Can I just say, well done you for starting so early? DS is 9 weeks and I'm only now in some kind of mindset to try this with him. But this could also be due to recovery tme after emergency c section and then we moved house when ds was 1.5 weeks old. Like you, having difficulty when DD is around. Have you checked the 2 under 2 board for other mums in your stuation?

Awww, that's sweet of you to say, thank you.  I just know how much EASY/Bw'ing helped with my Touchy Ds1, I really wanted to start as soon as possible with Ds2.  I have been on the 2 under 2 board, but it doesn't seem very active when I have been on.  I'll check again though, good suggestion.

Liz - Thanks so much for taking the time to peak at my post.  I think you may be onto something with the GS.  It may have been just that, b/c he seems to be back on track.  It's tricky to pinpoint what's been helping, because we have tweaked his EASY a touch, and he is also being more consistent on his EASY as well, so I can see some good patterns, which I'm sure is helping too..

Are you tandem feeding though?? If you are then hunger could certainly be a factor. Plus all the trillion growth spurts at this sort of age

This is SUCH a good point, and something I will have to continue to keep in mind.  I am pumping for Ds1 (and he will occationally tandem nurse) - but I pump all the milk Ds1 needs for the day in the AM after Ds2 nurses and gets his fill first... Yes, I feel like a milk cow sometimes , but am happy I seem to have an abundent supply.  When Ds1 does tandem nurse I try and make sure its after Ds2 has fed, and then Ds1 can finish from the same side (so I know he's not draining my full breast for next feed) But, that being said, it's something I should watch out for just incase, and you're right, especially during a GS I could definitely see that causing sleep/nap issues due to hunger.

So far we seem to be in a good groove again, but I'm sure we'll have more bumps/transitions soon enough

Thanks again! xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

[*Liz*]

Glad things have improved for you  .

Certainly be aware that GSs will cause you supply issues (at least until your supply is boosted by plenty of feeding and pumping). Watch put for the big 6 week one which is just around the corner  .