5 month old sleep pattern changed - help!

[kristag]

Hello everyone

My name is Krista and I'm brand new to the forum.  I was recommended by a lovely lady on the Totz forum to pop along here.

I have 3 children, the youngest being 5 months old. She's been a great sleeper from 6 weeks old onwards until around 3 weeks ago when she started waking every 2 hours in the night. She just needed a feed and a cuddle then went back to sleep.  I started weaning 2 weeks ago as I guessed she was hungry. She is also starting to teethe.  However, the last 4 or 5 nights have been hell.

She wakes for a feed around midnight and will go straight back to sleep in her cot.  However, when she wakes at 4am which is now a regular thing, she won't settle back in her cot. I've tried everything from controlled crying (she can cry for over an hour and gets hot and hysterical in the end) to picking her up, giving her a cuddle without talking to her, to just stroking her head, etc. Nothing works and we've been just having to play with her until the rest of the household get up. She's fine laying anywhere but the cot!

Last night was weirder still. She woke as usual at 4am and I left her to cry until 5am when I picked her up.  As I lifted her from the cot, she fell into a really deep sleep.  I cuddled her and then put her back into the cot.  Her body had barely touched the sheet when she went into a total screaming fit again. I picked her up again and before I'd rested her hed on my shoulder, she was asleep.  I put her down again with the same result, screaming the place down.  I didn't know what to do so went downstairs and picked up a rocker chair and put her in it and again, from the moment I lifted her from the cot she stopped crying, went to sleep and happily was put in the rocker until 8am when she woke up and just played quietly. 

I've been wondering about teething but no amount of Calpol, Nurofen, etc helps stop this cycle and surely if her teeth were hurting her, she would carry on crying when I picked her up?

I'm at my wits end and so very tired.  The whole house is badly affected by this and we're starting to snap at each other which isn't good.

Has anyone else experienced such a thing and how did you stop it?

I would appreciate any advice.

Thank you so much everyone.

[mmom]

Hugs and welcome.  We don't recommend controlled crying, as it breaks the trust between mom and baby.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63839.0

Can you post your routine in EAS format?

Does your LO go to sleep independently during the day?

Any new foods or anything happening developmentally?

If you are not in a routine, this should help.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69369.0

[kristag]

Thank you for the welcome.

She does go to sleep independently during the day - either in her swing chair or just laying on her mat on the floor but will not do so at night.

She is weaning and is very hungry so on 3 meals a day already and loving them.

One other thing to note is that she is BF exclusively. I've tried to get her to take a bottle with absolutely no joy. She will use a Doidy cup but she prefers her milk straight from the source!  I was hoping to start to drop BF within the next month or so but it looks  unlikely at this point. I therefore have no idea how much she drinks during the day.

Her routine (if you can call it that) goes something like this:

8.30am Breakfast + BF
9am Playing on her mat, bouncer or just rolling around the floor (she's just learnt to roll right around and loves it). Sometimes she falls asleep for 30-60 mins on her own.
12 noon - lunch + BF
12.30pm Try and get her to nap in swing seat.  Often she won't nap at all and never goes down in her cot
3pm - BF
5.30pm - dinner + BF
6.30pm - bath and pyjamas on. She always wants to feed after her bath
7pm BF )
8pm BF )
9pm BF ) this is like a bulk frantic constant feed.  It's a habit she's been in for months.  Then she will go to bed in her cot and sleep for a while
11.30pm-12 midnight - wake and BF
2am BF
4am No feed needed but wide awake
5.30am - will go back to sleep only if she's put in her rocker chair. WIll scream the house down if you try and get her to sleep in her cot again.

Her night feeds she always falls asleep at the breast.

So, not much of a routine really I'm afraid. Very hit and miss.

I'm finding it quite hard work.  With my 12 year old, the thinking was "feed every 4 hours" and I recall vividly carrying her around crying trying to get to the 4 hour mark.  She was a prem baby and wouldn't take to BF at all so I expressed for a month but she had a bottle and also forumula. She was a hungry baby and I started weaning on HV advice at 13 weeks (seems incredible now doesn't it).

With my 2 1/2 year old I was told to feed on demand.  I did and she was a great sleeper but she also used a dummy and took to a bottle very well.  She would sleep from around 10pm - 7am from a few months old. I remember asking the HV if I should wake her for a feed and was told not to as she would wake if she was hungry. (I only know all this as I kept a daily diary of feeds and what we got up to for both older girls as I do now with Natasha).

I hope that 'helps' somewhat. I have printed out the information you have recommended - thank you.  Sounds a bit hard work but worth it if she will sleep through again.

So, Natasha is quite different.

[mmom]

((HUGS))) You are doing a great job.  Each baby is different and has different challenges.  I am thinking you should try and get her onto a 4 hour routine during the day.  But I didn't EBF, so I am going to get some BF eyes for you.

Here are some sample routines for you to check out.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164029.0  At this age, your LO can do 2-2.25 hours of A time. But after a 30 minute nap, you will want to shorten it.

I would also start focusing on getting your LO to sleep in her crib for naps.  Sleeping on a mat in a room with people, won't set her up for good sleep.  KWIM?  The same with a swing.  We used the swing a lot in the early days with both kids, as they both have reflux.  But it got to a point that they almost craved sleeping in their beds.

I know I already posted this.  But I think it really will be helpful for you.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69369.0

Let me know what you think.

[kristag]

Thanks hun. I have printed out the pages your suggested and am reading through them whilst running up and down stairs trying to get Natasha to sleep in her cot. She's currently screaming the place down and is hot and bothered. I'm going up every few minutes to reassure her. The minute I touch her forehead, she stops crying, the minute I let go, she starts again. Sounds like she's getting some serious separation anxiety at this point. Perhaps sleeping in the lounge with all the buzz around her makes her feel safer?  I've put a classical radio station on for some background noise for her. I'm very stressed.

She does suffer wind a lot and enjoys being more upright but that's not the main issue. She'll be in her cot if she falls asleep and is then put in it but she won't settle if she's awake and put down.

I'll crack on with the reading - thank you so much hun!! x

[pianowerks]

Hi - sorry to hear, I am having night wakings with my 5 month old too. If your child is exclusively breastfeeding - 5 months is too early to wein them. The solids can not be digested like breast milk is and should be a supplement to nursing, and happen after you nurse, not before.

If you are set on weening, baby needs a formula supplement and not just milk - there is not enough nutrition in milk alone for her. I think she is hungry is part of the problem.

Also, you might try putting her to bed earlier than 9pm if she is waking at 4am. Try even 15 minutes for a few nights and see if that helps, then go another 15 minutes earlier for a 830pm bedtime. It sounds like she is sleeping well (better than mine) so if there is an early wake, she needs to go to bed earlier because she is overly tired.

Is the cot too cold? or is baby falling asleep in your arms, they don't like to be put down when asleep in your arms it is a vertigo falling feeling for them when you try to ease them back into the cot.

I used to have to sleep a heating pad into son #1 cot to warm it so he would no be so aware when i put him back in but DO NOT leave the heating pad in there, just put it a LOW warm to take the chill off the sheets, but not too much heat and once again do not let the child sleep on it.

Let me know what you find that helps and hang in there - it's tough especially when you have more than one child to deal with

[mmom]

((HUGS)))  I wouldn't leave the room if she is screaming.  I would stay with her to settle her.  You may have to do some GW, but if she isn't used to being alone, then she is just going to scream.  You could try some ssh/pat and putting a hand on her while she is in the crib.

[Tay]

Hi there,
Was reading along and wondered if you would try to establisha feeding routine a bit more 'spread out', that way you would know that you're child is not hungry enough to be waking up every couple of hours at night to feed, and feel more confident about working on indepedent sleep.

My thing with my children was alway: if they can last 3 or 4 hours during the day between BFs, then they should be able to last as long (if not longer) at night. of course it depends on how weel they fed during the day etc, but as a general rule of thumb it would give me an idea of where to start.

What I mean by 'spread out' is like one of the pps says, separating the BFs from the solids. You could give your LO water in a sippy with the solids meals instead of BF afterwards.
If I remember well, at that age with DS we were doing something like: 7am BF, 8.30am breakfast, 11am BF, 12.30 lunch, 3pm BF, 5.30pm dinner, 7pm BF (and we had dropped the DF, but you could keep it for a while to see how things develop).

What do you think?
xxx

[kristag]

Thank you for the replies ladies.  I'm going to give a few ideas a go and have borrowed the Baby Whisperer book from a friend 

She is definitely ready for weaning as she reaches for your food and watches you eat.  She also opens her mouth and can use her tongue to get the food in properly.  She also loves it!  I've separated the BF first thing when she wakes in the morning from her breakfast which is usually about an hour later.  I've tried activity then putting her in her cot upstairs but she screams the place down. The HV suggested "no baby has died from crying so leave her to it just checking on her" but that is not what she needs and I did try over the weekend and she just got worse!  Thanks HV for nothing

I have always fed on demand and generally she would sleep on the boob and then I'd put her down for a nice sleep.  However, she will happily fall asleep on her play mat or in her swing during the day still so putting her into the cot stresses her out.  Before all these night wakings started, I would let her feed around 8 or 9pm and then when she fell asleep put her into her moses basket and she'd go through until about 5-6am which was fantastic.  However, I'm wondering if it's the cot that is the problem as she's now outgrown her moses basket and is having to be in the cot which is more 'roomy'.  Just a thought.

I've had a good read of the Baby Whisperer book already - flicking to some recommended chapters and whilst I think the PU/PD option sounds great, I can't see how I can possibly achieve that with a toddler around. I can't leave her alone for 20-60 mins whilst I'm upstairs with Natasha trying to get her to sleep and if Sophie is up with me, she'll be in and out of the bedroom which defeats the object!  Anyone with a toddler that can tell me how to achieve this? I get the impression the book is a little more biased to just the one child or at least one younger and one older 

Natasha can go 3 hours between feeds no problem, even up to 4 if we're in the car going somewhere as she sleeps almost the entire journey.  Daytime is less of an issue although to be honest, she doesn't sleep much and for long during the day but that's not any different to how she was when she slept through.

I'm puzzling this out and stumped. I've read back through the diary I kept of her since birth and nothing has changed other than possibly teething and weaning.  I'm at a total loss ladies 

[mmom]

((HUGS))) It just seems as if you have created a lot of APOP (accidental parenting on purpose) and now she is getting older and needs routine.  You also need to teach independent sleep.

I would stretch feeds out to 4 hours if possible.  She should be able to go that long.  Or at least 3.5 hours.

As for sleep, I wouldn’t leave her to cry at all.   I would start with a variation PU/PD, since you haven’t established independent sleep yet.  I would start by staying in her room and soothing her from outside the crib.  Perhaps rubbing her back.  If she stands , lay her back down, but don’t go anywhere.   Then you might have to do a bit of gradual withdrawal.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69187.0 This may take a while in the beginning.  But she will catch on fast.  If you can put your other LO in a safe place and maybe put a favorite show on, he/she should be fine.  I understand if you are not a fan of TV.  But for times like this, I found it helpful.  It won’t be a long term solution.

She will get used to her crib.  She is just used to sleeping in random places and now you have to teach her how to sleep.  The first few days will be really hard.  But if you are consistent and persevere through the crying, she will learn.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69369.0

[kristag]

Hi everyone, sorry I've not replied but been busy trying to get something sorted out with this sleep thing.

I have a version of EASY that I've implemented but it doesn't follow the book entirely but seems to be working nicely for us so I'm pleased.  It goes like this (more or less):

07:30 awake and play
08:30 breakfast and play
09:30 BF then sleep
11:00 awake and play
12-12:30 lunch then play
13:30 BF then sleep
15:30 awake and play
16:30 BF and play
17:30 Dinner
18:00 - 18:30 bath and BF then play
19:30 - 20:00 BF to start then 5oz of hungry baby milk in bottle (snuck in as she doesn't like the bottle!) then sleep

The night before last, she then slept through until 4am which was fantastic and I gave her a BF then and she carried on sleeping until 7.30am.  However, last night she did her usual midnight, 2am, 4am feeds   I have no idea why as I gave her the 5oz of milk after her BF and she had the lot then I put her on the other boob and she had all of that too before going to bed.  I did try and just settle her back down but as soon as I picked her up she was nuzzling looking for food and had both boobs again so she was very clearly hungry.

Oh, BTW, she is now sleeping very happily in her cot and just playing when she wakes rather than crying straight away

So, we are establishing a kind of routine where she goes to sleep during the day both morning and afternoon.  I appreciate it doesn't follow the full EASY routine but I'm getting time, she's getting sleep and we're all having fun playing. Importantly too, my toddler has some 'mummy' time on her own as she's been a bit swamped with little one for a while now.

My difficulty is why she is still so hungry at night. She clearly cannot go right through at the moment as she needs the feeds.  I'm flummoxed.  I never had this with my toddler as she was a good, solid sleeper from 8 weeks onwards and that's never changed to this day.  However, I presumed with little one it was a growth spurt, weaning needed, etc but nothing as worked.

I have tried the PU/PD thing after the shush/pat and am not leaving her unless she's just sniffling a little at which point I know she's about to drop off to sleep. However the PU/PD did not work for me as I ended up being upstairs for over an hour and a half and I was edgy about being there with my toddler downstairs watching TV so I wasn't relaxed and I am sure she picked up on that.  Also, Sophie (toddler) starts to call me at the foot of the stairs when I am gone for any length of time so really not an option.  Unfortunately for me, Natasha feeding to sleep is the best option, especially now that she's fine in her cot if she wakes. I've also been in to check her where she's a bit awake, looked at me and just rolled over and gone back to sleep which is a huge step forward.

If I could now only crack the night waking and how to feed her enough to stop her doing so.  Any suggestions?

Please don't tell me off too much for not doing the full EASY routine we're 100% better than we were

[mmom]

I am so happy you are making progress.

Here comes the but.......  I would change your EASY so that it is BF, 1 hour later solids, then sleep.  She still has the feed to sleep association and that is going to get much harder to break as she gets older.  If you tackle it now, it may be a week of screaming. But if she gets older, it will be more difficult.  I do understand the difficulty of leaving another LO.  I always put my LO in a safe space with lots of his favorite toys.  Yes, he sometimes came to get me or got into a mess of some sort.  But because I implemented independent sleep, when I did have to do pu/pd, it wasn't for long periods.

I feel you have to bite the bullet and do it.  If you give in with a bf, you will be starting from scratch.  The idea is to just push though and never give in.  Start with the day feeds, so she loses the feed to sleep association. Like I said, you might have to do a variation of PU/PD and then gradual withdrawal, if she needs you to stay in the room initially, while she is learning to sleep.

[kristag]

Thanks hun.  I gave her a BF today before her morning nap and she didn't go off to sleep but I still carried her up to her cot and put her in it. She looked at me and cried as I left the room so I just walked back in, said 'shush' and I'm not far away. Did that 2 or 3 times and let her cry just a bit (not screaming and really upset) and within 5 minutes she was asleep on her own  

I will try and get the BF/solids the other way around and will give that a shot from tomorrow as I'm kinda stuck today as she's just had lunch and then will have a BF in about 20 mins before her afternoon nap.  What I may do though is try and wake her up after her feed just a little so she is aware of being laid down in her cot again and see if she can settle herself.

I really appreciate all the advice.  I'll keep you posted