Author Topic: Regular NW and EW for 7.5mo - This is very long. Sorry!  (Read 1208 times)

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Offline lianna

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Regular NW and EW for 7.5mo - This is very long. Sorry!
« on: August 15, 2011, 09:11:30 am »
Hi,

My DS is approaching 7.5 months now and we've had a really long journey with his sleeping.

Until he was 5.5mo he was totally reliant on props (feeding, rocking, walking, car) to get him to sleep and was waking 5-6x a night every night. We were knackered but then bit the bullet and started sleep training with him. PUPD was a real success and a fortnight later DS was totally capable of settling himself to sleep without any props for all his naps, at BT and after NWs. Sometimes there are some tears and we still have to do PUPD to get him to sleep, but usually it's 5-10 mins at most and he's asleep.

Life got so much better with DS taking 3 regular naps every day and waking only twice per night, once for a feed and once as a NW.

But it's getting a little worse again now. DS is in bed between 7.30 and 8 every night, then usually sleeps until about 11.30 when he wakes for a feed (will be weaning him off this very soon I hope) and then he'll settle easily and sleep until he wakes again at about 4-5am.

This is where it gets hard. His behaviour at this point is really varied which is why we're struggling to work out what to do.

Sometimes he'll settle very easily but then wake for the day at 5-6am happy and ready to get up. In this case he'll end up really OT all day and it's really hard getting his naps to work on schedule.

Other times it'll take 1-2 hours of gentle settling, perhaps some shhh/pat, during which he's mantra crying, then going quiet and seeming to be askeep, only to wake again 3 minutes later to start it all again. Poor little soul does this for hours and gets so tired. Again, getting his daytime naps and EASY to work is then really hard.

Other times DS will scream and cry for 1-2 hours and we'll have to do PUPD to get him back to sleep and it's a real effort.

Whatever happens during this NW, he's suffer from EW as well, waking up for the day between 6-7am which is just too early considering he's awake for so much of the night. Daytimes are then really hard.

Increasingly, he's adding in 1-2 of extra NW as well, one at about 10.30pm and one at about 2.30am. These happen some nights but not others.

Whatever happens, he still doesn't use props to get to sleep.

So we're a bit stuck on how to solve this problem. We seem to be stuck in an OT cycle where his nights are bad so his daytime naps suffer and he ends up OT at BT and then sleeps badly through the night. Please help with any suggestions you may have!

More information in case it's useful:

I breasfeed DS 4x daily (every 4 hours) and 1x at night. Additionally, he gets 3 meals and 1 snack per day roughly 1 hour after each BF. He is eating very well and enjoys his food. He gets porridge in the morning, some sort of veggie thing for lunch then pasta/rice based food for dinner. Fruit and finger food, as well as yoghurts make up the rest of it. DS is small and lightweight, on the 6th centile for weight but healthy rather than underweight. Both myself and my DH are not heavy people.

DS is very mobile. He was crawling before 6 months, and can now roll over back to front (but not front to back) and get himself from sitting into crawling and vice versa, and can pull himself into standing on anything he likes. I did wonder if this was a big part of the problem and this can be an issue getting him to sleep, but during the NW he is often just lying there and crying when we go into his room.

His EASY is not perfect but ok I think. He is on a rough 4h EASY but it often works out more of an EASAEASA than EASEAS. I stick to BF every 4 hours. 

His A time at present is 2.5 hours. I guess it should be a bit longer for a LO his age but I find he's so OT that pushing it past this is not good for him at present. I'll be happy to take advice!

His naps are quite good. He has 3 every day. The first is his best, roughly 1.5-2h and easy to settle him for. The second is ok too and usually about 1h and also easy to settle him for. The third is more difficult, hard to settle and often only 20-30mins.

His bedtime routine is simple but we do it every day without fail.
6.20pm - story time.
6.30pm - dinner time (solid)
~7.00pm - bath with Daddy then into pyjamas and sleeping bag.
~7.20pm - close curtains and quiet. Breastfeed. He eats well.
~7.50pm - cuddle with mummy, then cuddle with daddy then into cot awake. He's usually asleep within minutes.

DS is mostly spirited with a touch of touchy and a touch of textbook. Even though he's OT a lot of the time, he's very smiley and is enjoying life at the moment. I'm just sure he could enjoy it more with more sleep - as could we!

I'm sure there's more info that would be useful but can't think what right now!

My main questions are:

1. If he's waking early at 6 but we try and settle him unsuccessfully until 7 when I get him up, say, do I treat his A-time as starting at 6am or 7am? When do I put him down for his first nap. I've tried both ways but can't really work out whats' best?

2. Is his A-time long enough for a 7.5mo?

3. How can we get out of the OT cycle he's in?

4. What could be causing the NW and EW and what can we do about them?!!!!

If anybody has read this far then thank you so much already for just doing that!

Lianna.

Offline lianna

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Re: Regular NW and EW for 7.5mo - This is very long. Sorry!
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 09:11:57 am »
Wow - just read it all through again. It really is very long.

Offline lianna

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Re: Regular NW and EW for 7.5mo - This is very long. Sorry!
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 09:40:24 am »
really long and I just thought of something else to add...

Teething - DS is teething a little. He doesn't have any pearly whites yet but you can tell his gums hurt him sometimes. When they hurt, he chews his gums and pouts a little and makes a very specific noise... this is sometimes the cause of disturbed sleep but it isn't 'the answer'

Thanks,
Lianna

Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: Regular NW and EW for 7.5mo - This is very long. Sorry!
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2011, 03:38:58 am »
Hi Lianna,

Just had a quick read as I see you haven't had any responses yet. My first thought is that he may be getting too much day sleep which is affecting his nights. Then because the nights are not so good he is tired and catching up during the day...it can be a bit of a circle IYSWIM?

Can you please post your EASY to help people to see what could be tweaked? :)

My initial thoughts is that he needs to have more A time - this can be gradually increased over time. Then drop the CN, and bring BT earlier to prevent OT. What do you think? Once we can see your EASY it will make things clearer.

S x


***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline lianna

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Re: Regular NW and EW for 7.5mo - This is very long. Sorry!
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 18:27:54 pm »
Sorry its taken me so long to reply - don't get online as often as I'd like!

The EASY we have with DS is roughly

Wake early anytime between 5.30 and 7am
Get up 7
E - 7.05 - 7.20
A - 7.20 - 9.30 incl. solid breakfast
Settle - 9.30 - 9.40
S - 9.40 - 11.00
E - 11.05 - 11.20
A - 11.20 - 1.30 incl. solid lunch
Settle - 1.30 - 1.45
S - 1.45 - 2.45
A - 2.45 - 3.00
E - 3.00 - 3.15
A - 3.15 - 5.15 incl. solid snack
Settle - 5.15 - 5.30
S - 5.30 - 6.00 (we wake DS)
A - 6.00 - 7.30 incl. bedtime wind down and bath
E - 7.30 - 7.45
S - 7.50

We're trying to increase the A time day by day with the aim of cutting out the catnap ASAP... Tricky when we're stuck in the OT vicious cycle!

I'd love to hear your thoughts...

Thanks, Lianna.

Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: Regular NW and EW for 7.5mo - This is very long. Sorry!
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2011, 19:56:05 pm »
Can you bring that BT forward? I know it sounds counterproductive, but in a lot of cases an earlier BT will mean a longer night sleep for LOs when they are in a cycle like this.

I think you def need to cut the CN and increase his A times, which I agree is hard when the nights are such rubbish. Does your LO STTN or wake?

I would think you need to look at aiming for something like this
WU no earlier than 6

AM Nap 3.5 hours after WU so 9.30 if WU is 6 and 10.30 if WU is 7 the reason I am thinking this is that this is your only good nap ie over an hour. We dont want to mess with that too much. Ifyou think your DS is better with this as a fixed nap and it is always 9.40 then leave for now.

PM Nap 3 hours min from PM wake. So if AM nap is 9.30-11 then PM nap is ~2 and sleeping no later than 4

BT ~3 hours from PM nap wake, if your LO wakes early ie at 3PM then you may need to bring BT forward to 6/6.30pm to compensate and prevent OT.

This could take you a while to get there, only look at increasing an A 5-15 mins at a time every few days,  but I think you are closer than you think to dropping that CN IF you can offer an early BT.

What do you think?
***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline lianna

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Re: Regular NW and EW for 7.5mo - This is very long. Sorry!
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2011, 03:45:49 am »
Hi, and thank you so much for your reply. It's taken me so long to get back on here - I don't get as much online time as I'd like!

We've had a mixed couple of weeks... Stretching our A time has been going very well and DS often now manages 2.45 or 3 hours before his first nap and 3-3.30h before his second. Depending on how long those sleeps are he may then still need a catnap but is now having quite a few 2 nap days.

We've tried to bring BT forwards a little but can't a lot because my DH doesn't get home from work early enough and I have a back problem that makes it very hard for me to do bath time by myself, although thus is getting slowly better. DS is normally asleep by 7.30 rather than 8 now.

Thing is, we're still getting all the NW... DS sometimes wakes at 10.30pm still, and is awake from 3-4am every night. The EW seems to be better than it was. DS normally wakes between 6.30 and 7.

He's also teething more seriously now, and the crying can be terrible. I find it hard to be strict re pupd when he's hurting because he just needs comforting doesn't he? Twice now I've caved and fed to comfort his pain. Teething can't be solely responsible for the NW though because the NW are at such regular times. It does confuse me though, regarding how we deal with our problem...

Any thoughts and ideas gratefully heard!

Thanks,
Lianna

Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: Regular NW and EW for 7.5mo - This is very long. Sorry!
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2011, 04:06:22 am »
Great to hear about the naps hun :) those As look great! I think you really want to loose the CN but you will need that first A a touch longer first.

7.30 is a totally reasonable BT with a 6.30-7am WU.

If he wakes at 10.30 eery night or a lot you can try W2S an hour before he usually stirs. Are you medicating before BT if he is teething? I wouldn't be strict with PU/PD while he is poorly, jsut give him cuddles etc. I also feed when DS is teething really bad, it is the only thing that will help. BUT you dont want it to become a habit at the same time IYKWIM? 3-4am is often when they hit light sleep so it cold easily be that the discomfort is waking him. Does medicating help at this time?

If you post your EASY then we can have a look at if those NW could be routine related :)
***Sara***
https://www.facebook.com/tomiandroo


DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.