6 mo old - great daytime sleep, many NWs, and Shh/Pat a prop?

[tbsd]

Hi,

I am hoping that someone may have some advice on how to improve my son's sleeping and some tricks to help me with shh/pat because I think it has become a prop.  My son has just turned 6 months.  He is a great napper - having two 1.5 -2 hr naps and sometimes a 45 min CN.  He is on a 4hr  EASY and has just started solids and is eating between 2-3 meals.  He doesn't have teeth yet and his gums aren't swollen but he is very drooly and loves to chew on things   He is BF.

Our EASY looks like this:

Awake/Eat - 6 - 7 am
A - 7 - 9:15/30
S - 9:15/30 - 11 am
E - BF 11
A - 11 - 1:15/30
S - 1:15/30 - 3:00 pm
E - 3pm
A - 3 -5 pm
CN - between 5 - 6 for 45 - 60 mins (not always) 
E - 7pm
BT - 7:30
DF - 11
Solids tend to happen around our meal times but we're still working on the feeding times for this.

My son has never STTN, although he has done stretches from 7:30 - 2:30/3:30 with a DF at 11 but this is far from the norm.  More often he wakes once before the 11 pm DF and we use s/p.  He then wakes consistently every 2-3 hours at night.  I try to feed him only once around 3:30/4 am.  He almost always wakes between 5 - 6 am.  We try to s/p him back to sleep.  Sometimes I feed him if he is just not settling.  I then feed him again at 7 am and we start our day from there.

I'm curious about whether there is something in our daytime routine that is throwing off his nighttime sleep? 

Also, he doesn't really do independent sleep.  We have used sh/pat since about 6 weeks and I find that he really needs it to sleep so I think it has become a prop.  With it, he can fall asleep in under 3 minutes.  Without it, he mantra cries and then escalates to full blown cry at which point we sh/pat until he is asleep (and sometimes throw in a PUPD).  I have tried to pull back on the s/pat but he gets upset quite quickly and so I start again (which I'm sure is just creating a bad cycle).  If I don't he very quickly goes from doing his soothing sleep moans (which he does in time to the patting on his back) to full on crying. 

So again, I'm wondering what I can do to help the NWs and to reduce dependence on s/p.  We're ready to wean him off all NFs and to get to independent sleep.

Thanks in advance for the advice.  I find this forum so, so helpful!!!

[mmom]

((HUGS))) Sshh/pat can be really disruptive at this age for some LOs.  Are you touching him while you are doing it?  I almost think you would be better off with PU/PD.

I also think you could use more A time after that first nap and after the 2nd.  Also, at this age, the long CN can interfere with night sleep.  Could you cap it at 30 minutes?

The other possibility is teething.  The first ones are the worst.

But it sounds like your LO needs you to fall asleep all the time?  Does he ever just go down on his own?

[tbsd]

thanks.  he doesn't ever go down on his own...well, he has a few times but we do tend to go to him if he isn't settling and less than a minute of shh/pat is all he needs.  when we do shh/pat i'm patting his back but that is it, no hands anywhere else.  i'm curious about longer a times.  my first son started EASY at 7+ months and we got him on a 4-hr easy with 2 x 2hr naps with 2 hour A times and it worked like a charm (although he didn't ever sleep through the night).  perhaps I'll put a post on the EASY forum about A times because I'm curious about how to stay on a 4 hr easy if A times are longer and he still sleeps 2 hr naps.  do you have any thoughts?

also, how would you do PUPD with him?  i'm still not sure exactly what this would look like?

thanks again

[mmom]

At 7 months, most LOs are transitioning to 2 naps and therefore doing a 3 hour A.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652 

in the 6-7 month range, there are 2 naps and a cat nap, which fits fine with a 4 hour EASY.  The cat nap is generally short though and gets shorter as you get to the 3 hour A.  Many LOs fight the CN at this age and an early bedtime is necessary.

As for PU/PD, this is how you do it.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=208990.0  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=209636.0

It sounds like you have to work on independent sleep, since you need to be with your LO for sleep.  Do you think you could tweak your A's a bit and then try PU/PD if your LO won't settle?

[tbsd]

Today we extended the A times without too, too much trouble.  Our day looked like this:

Awake/Eat: 7:30
A: 7:30 - 10:30
S: 10:30 - 12:30
E: 12:30; solids at 2pm
A: 12:30 - 3:30
S: 3:30 - 5:15
E: 5:30, solids at 6:30
BT: 7:30 with a bath at 7 and a short nurse just before sleep.

LO was totally ready for bed at 7:30...he began showing sleep signs at 7 ish.  I know that he ate a lot between 5:30 - 7:30 but the later naps sort of shortened our last A time (or at least it felt like that).  Because he had 3hr A times, his second BF of the day came about 5 hrs after the first.  This is the part that throws me a bit but he seemed okay so I'm going with it.

It was also very unusual for LO to sleep until 7:30.  Last night we had a big family dinner.  He went to bed at my in-laws at 6:30, I had to wake him at 8:30 to go home and we got him down again by 10:30 (with a BF at 9pm) so I skipped the DF.  He slept without waking until 3:15 am and put himself back to sleep in about 10 mins and then woke again at 5 am when I fed him.  Normally he would wake again between 6-6:30 but he slept until 7:30.  Who knows, maybe because of the later bedtime.

I will check out the links you sent.  Thanks for the insight.  Very helpful. 

And, I totally agree, independent sleep is our next hurdle.  I think we may work on getting rid of the NFs and extending A times and then tackle the independent sleep (although, I will try using PUPD more now).

[tbsd]

Hi,

I just want to add how our night went:

BT: 7:30
DF: 11 pm
NW: 4:30 (BF was given)
Awake: 8 am and BF

He has never done stretches like this.  Not sure what we've done differently...maybe the longer A times?  Also, since he slept later, we'll adjust his EASY for today and see whether this means he'll go down for BT at 8pm or if he'll still be ready by 7:30.

[mmom]

I am so glad you are seeing progress!  The only thing I would change is that last A to bed.  If you are doing a 3 hour A all day, I would make that last A 3 hours too.  I think 2 hours is too short.