6 mo sleep problems

[trinity33]

Hi

We've been having problems with ds sleep since he was 4 mo with long happy night wakings and ew. We've had a few successes of a few days or so and then seem to go off track again. The general pattern has been either good nights or good naps never both.

The night before last was good in that although there was a 40 min happy chat at 5.20 he then went back to sleep until 7.20. This is the latest start to the day we've had in months so I thought it would give us a great start to base a routine on. After lots of experimentation over the last few months he seems to do long am naps after a 3.45 A time, massive I know but less seems to give us 35 min naps.

So yesterday was...


7.20 wu and bottle
8.39 cereal
10.45 bottle, moved this to pre nap for the first time as late nap due to later wu
11 sleep 1.20 hour
12.30 lunch
3.15 nap 35 mins
4 bottle
5.30 dinner
6.45 bottle
7.15 sleep, went to sleep in 5 mins on own no tears

He was tired when I put him down for pm nap but still only did short nap on under 3.45 A time. Did,t seem ot at bt, if anything wondered if I should have pushed bt til 7.30. We have been doing lots of 6.50 bt though due to 5.30 am start to the days and didn't know what to try after late wu.

He slept soundly until 3.15 then had 20 min chatting party, went back to sleep but woke every 45 mins with fussing and mantra for a few mins. Then back to sleep on own. Woke for the day at 6.25. He is also teething at the moment, cutting his incisors.  6th tooth since Christmas!

He's great at self soothing and puts himself to sleep, the only prop we use at the start of a nap and bt is a White noise machine that lasts 1 hour. I generally don't go in to him in the night unless he is upset crying. It's nearly always happy chatting or mantra with a little bit of fussing and me going in just makes him think it's party time and extends the nw. A couple if nights ago he woke crying hard at 4 and I thought ut was pain with teeth so gave calpol but it took 1.15 to resettle. Last night he self settled fir all wakings.

So what do you think I'm at a loss.  If I try a 3.45 hour A time til pm nap it will push us close to bt, but do I just push bt right back. Looking at the last couple of weeks he's averaging 10.40-11.30 hours at night, just either broken with pre midnight wu where he's had poor naps or early morning parties or ew where he's had good naps.

I felt like I mentally needed a blank slate hence the new post, but our long long history of nw and ew is under 4mo nw or ew thread.

Thanks in advance.

[ZacsMumme]

Hi there,
Is there a reason his A times are so high? At 6 months most LOs would be doing closer to 2hrs45-3hrs A time and taking two solid naps, or 3-4 short ones if LO is unable to sleep longer than 35/45 mins.

I do think he is OT by BT, and that he would probably sleep better at night with more day sleep.

What do you think? - If you agree we can look at a plan for his day

[trinity33]

Hiya thanks for replying Sara.

We pushed his A times out due to long happy nw starting when he was around 4 months. At 5 months it seemed that he would only do long naps on 3.10 A time and more recently on 3.45.  He's 6 mo 3 weeks today. Having said that when we push A times to get good naps we have night parties and ew. maybe we would be better with short nap@ 

last night was worse.

6.25 Wu for day
10 sleep woke at 35 mins chatted for 25 mins then slept another hour
2.45 sleep 1 hour, started in car then in car seat at home
7.25 bt
3.15 am chatted for 20 min
4.30 moan and mantra
5.20 awake for day.
left him in crib til 6.20 chatting.

what would you reccomend?  8.20 nap after 3 hour A time?

Many thanks.

[ZacsMumme]

Okay so your LO sounds like he needs high A times. I still wonder though if those A times are a bit too long. While long chatting NW can mean UT Rey an also mean OT, ESP if it's cumulated over time so it's a toughie

Given your LO woke at 5.20 10am is almost a 5 hr A, this is what my 16 mth oldies which is why I am not 100% this is UT behavior KWIM?

I really think that it would be worth just trying a shorter AM A time and just see how he goes.

Is your LO angel/textbook?

[trinity33]

Thanks so much for speedy reply. Yep I also think short A worth a try even if it gives a shorter nap. We seem to have been in a bad cycle of a few days of good nights and bad days, then I try and fix the days and break the nights. Maybe it's an accumulated ot that's the problem. Overall I would say things got better but not ideal after we dropped the cat nap at 5.5 months. But the last 5 nights have been bad again.

 He's had a chat at 3.15 am for the last 5 nights and what has happened after that has got worse each night, so for the last 3 nights his wu for the day times have got 1 hour earlier each day.

I think ds is spirited/touchy. Although I do change my mind from time to time.

He was looking really tired after 2.5 hours A time today (red rimmed eyes and red nose), this isn't normally the case after this am A time but he has had some really rubbish nights.  pd at 8.05 and was asleep by 8.15 so 2.55 A time. He slept 1.5 hours, yeay! Thought we're off to cracking start.

Then the day got really messy 

So then thought early bottle and lunch so to give same A time til next nap. He really wasn't looking tired at all but Decided to do this in stroller so he could get out the house for fresh air.  By the time e fell asleep it was 3.05 A time. He then woke after 25/30 mins, :-( no crying or eye rubbing just wide awake and smiling at me from the stroller.  what do you think ot or ut? Thissaws at 1.20 this afternoon.

He then started looking a little bit tired at 3.00, so figured if I need to get out of ot to try another nap. He protested a bit more than normal but only slept 30 mins, woke crying hard. I reallly ddn't know what to do so apoped him back to sleep on me. This took 20 mins of hard crying, I haven't done the since we dropped the catnap, really don't know if the was a good idea or not    I then woke him after 45 mins as it was 4.50.

Got a horried feeling I'm creating a ot/ut/ot loop but don't know how to get out if it  ???just feel so lost again. And being awake from 3.15 for the last few nights isn't helping me think straight either, always seems so much worse when you're uber tired yourself, like it will never get better.  :'(Right now I feel like the sttn and 5.30 wu was an ok deal.

[ZacsMumme]

HUGS My LO is touchy/spirited too and I think that they are a bit tough with sleep. They dont cope well with OT and have a small window for sleep from my experience.

WHen you say he was STTN but waking at 5.30 was he getting 10.5hrs sleep? - If so then I think that may have actually been ok! - This is what my LO did, and at that age 10.5hrs is a good night. Its not ideal for us, but it works for them with two good naps sometimes

Okay so, I think your first A sounds about right, you could add 15mins on so you are closer to 3hrs and see how he goes. After a good nap I would then try closer to 3hrs than 2.5. I think you are right and he was UT for that nap, then OT at BT.

Let me know how today goes

[trinity33]

Hi ima shel alon, we're back 

Hiya

Generally he has been sleeping 10.40 - 11.30 at night, sometimes with nw sometimes not. The longer times have generally had a happy chatty awake period and or ot style short nw before midnight.  So maybe in my attempts to get to a post 6 wu I've created an accumulative ot bunny. Here's an example from a while ago where I'd tried capping his pm nap to try and get a later wu. This is because a couple of weeks before we'd done well with long am and short am naps and gad a period if post 6 am wu. Bliss! The day he turned 6 months he did nearly a week of 11-12 hour nights and I was over the moon thinking it had all magically worked itself out, but we were having short naps, so I tried pushing A times to **fix** the naps, which worked but got us into this night time pickle over the period of a few days.

Eg from a while ago

5.45 wu, happy chatting in crib til I got him at 6.45
7.20 bttle
8.30 cereal
9.30 sleep 1.5 hours woke on own
11.30 bttle
12.30 lunch
2.45 sleep, started in car then transferred to house in car seat. I woke him after 1 hour
3.50 bottle
5.30 dinner
7 sleep

Woke for the day at 5.40.


The bit I don't get is how the day doesn't slip over a few days if they are only doing 10.5 at night.....I might be being a bit dense. What would a typical day look like?  Also what do you do if you have short pm naps?

Thanks Sara. 

[trinity33]

Today ended up as

5.20 wu
8.15 sleep 1.5 hours
12.50 sleep 30 mins
3.10 sleep 30 mins
4.05 sleep Apop I woke after 45 as it was getting close to bt
7.25 sleep bt

[ZacsMumme]

Well 10.5hrs is a full night sleep at this age really Esp if your LO is LSN then he would be getting 13hrs in a 24hr period which is okay...it is low, but okay KWIM?

I think it looks like he does a good morning nap no matter what A correct? The second does look like it could be to low if he doesn't usually do 30mins on a higher A.

What happens if you let him sleep 1.5hrs in the PM (I notice you woke) then do a later BT of 7.30? Does he sleep in a bit more?

[trinity33]

Hmm sounds like I might have created a problem when there wasn't one. Looking at my baby diary I would say he is averaging about 13.5 in a 24 hour period, just nit necessarily when I want him to do it 

Generally we have much more success with am naps. The time these dropped down to 35 mins was when Charlie was waking post 6 am so having 11.5 or more night sleep. He really was showing no tired signs after 3.15 hours,  Hence me increasing his A time so far. Pushing it out to 3.45 did lead to 1.5 hour naps but over a week we've ended up ot. But that could be more to do with not getting the pm naps right, or at least not consistently.

On paper the day before yesterday was good naps, although 1 hour rather than 1.30 was a bit short. But that gave us a terrible night, maybe that's down to the unsettled bit before wu or accumulative ot though. if I can get us to a 1.5 pm nap I won't cap in the future and see what happens.

[ZacsMumme]

HUGS - It is so hard! I found this age pretty tough we had EW for soooo long!
Some kids just EW though, and I learned it was best to roll with it and get myself to bed early too. The 2-1 sorted out our EW issues for the most part.

Maybe go with your gut for a few days, stick to what you feel is best for him, and if he short naps then bring BT forward OR offer another CN and later BT and see how he goes.....I found this often helped me to reset and then know what I needed to do, or get help with KWIM?

It does sound like he is LSN or high A times. 13.5hrs is what Z always did in 24hrs too....I stressed about it to no end, but its enough

[trinity33]

Thanks sara.
Had a bit better night, he woke at 3.20 briefly. Then 5.20 crying that quickly turned to mantra, slept fitfully until 6.10.

The more I think about it I think its the accumulated ot that is catching me out. So I think I've found an A time that works but it unravels over a few days. Maybe I n3ed to be more flexible.

Over the past month I have generally been going for an early bt to cope with poor pm nap. but as he is often only doing 10.5 hours this creates a problem of earlier ew over a few days which mean earlier finish to pm nap and then even earlier bt. so maybe I should cn some days and try and keep closer to a 7.30 bt. what do you think?

as another lsn bubba, did z 2-1 transition quite early? not that I think we are ready for it yet, just wondering.

I'll try playing it by ear for a few days and see what happens. Tbh I swing between this approach and help I don't know what we're doing, I must get us on a. routine. then after a stressy week of trying to get something that works consistently I through in the towel and think let's just go with the flow. lol Xx

[ZacsMumme]

You could try a Cn to get your day back on track if you think he wold take it. You may have to AP it in the car o buggy or something to get it though

We started the 2-1 around10 months and Z was solidly on 1 nap before his 1 birthday. I did it pretty slowly though as to prevent OT as Jesus touchy with sleep.

I do sometimes think a few days goingwiththe flow musth helps you to reset and see where your LO is heading. My guess is he is ready to cut the CN, but can't quite last enough A time to get the night sleep WU to a reasonable hr.

[trinity33]

Oh heck........

Following a couple of nw, wu was 6.10, yeay.

6.10 wu
9.20 nap 45 mins woke happy chatting- def ut even though longer A than yesterday, didn't look that tired when I put him Down, but kind of wanted to try shorter A time for a couple if days to try and sort accumulated ot.
12.45 a pop this in car as we had swimming at 1.30 which would have meant a 5 hour A time after short am nap, I had to wake after 35 mins.
3.30 refused a nap in cot
4.10 tried to a pop nap in stroller, walked for 40 mins and he just Grinned at me
6.20  sleep. a 5 hour A time    that so sooooooooooooooooo wasn't the plan.

Oh well just gotta keep my fingers crossed for tonight.  tomorrow's another day.

Quick update... best night all week.1 shout out and short nw at 7 .30 and 9  then slept through solidly til 5.15.  Go figure!