Need a bit of advice on 2-1 tweaking please (sorry, long)

[Papaya]

We're going the short am-long pm route through the 2-1, but have got into a bit of a EW loop and can't quite seem to get out of it.

Background: we've been nap capping since 11 months because of EWs and the day getting too long. First at an hour, then 45 mins. Nights were back to normal (she's an 11 hour night girl, so 7.30pm - 6.30/6.45am). I'd just started reducing the am nap down to 30 mins when we were hit with a nasty round of teething and sickness and she was needing the day sleep, so I was either letting her sleep or capping at an hour/45 mins, depending on how she was doing. Trouble is, I think I let that go on too long after she was ok again, so we're back to short nights, EWs and NWs for the past couple of weeks.

Some of you may hate me for this, but part of the *problem* is that F has been doing gloriously long PM naps this week. Like 2.5+ hours, although not every day. I'm so loath to cap them as I'm capping the morning nap, and from experience any time I've capped both it's led to OT NWs, even when the overall amount of day sleep is fine. But it means that there's only time for around 3.5 - 4 hrs A before BT, which is probably compounded the EWs but if I do later BT the day is way too long! I know I need to cap the first nap to bring the PM nap earlier, and possibly she could just about go to one nap now if they stay that long - but with the short nights she's doing now, I'm afraid to make the jump too quickly and risk massive OT.

Yesterday's EASY:

WU: awake at 5.30, quiet-ish in cot til 6.
Nap: 9.40 - 10.20 (woke her, 5 mins later than intended)
Nap: 1.15 - 3.45!!
BT: 7.30

Today wasn't such a long pm nap though:
WU: awake crying at 5.15, treated as NW and resettled, up for day just before 6 but suspect didn't sleep in between
Nap: 9.40 - 10.15
Nap: 1.15 - 2.50 - DH said she wasn't happy and still seemed tired but wouldn't resettle. Her sleep cycle is c. 1hr now so suspect this was one cycle plus an OT 35mins.
BT: 6.45? I don't think she'll do more than 4 hours max on a 1.5 hr OT nap, and it will keep the day to a reasonable length.  Hope it might bring a better WU tomorrow.

Two days ago I just had to wake her 2hr45 into her PM nap...

Last night she STTN for the first time in weeks - otherwise we've been having 1-2 very short NWs, often 1 before midnight (perhaps OT?) and one in the early hours. But she's easy to settle. So I think the long naps have actually been helping, it's just that they come too late in the day so perpetuate the EWs.

I have no idea what A time she can now do after a good 11 hr night with no NWs, as that hasn't happened in almost a month. Also don't know what A time she can manage after a 30 min nap when she wasn't already OT going down for that nap. Suspect if she weren't starting off with a short night, I would need to be capping at 20-30 mins max. Also don't know what A time she can do to bed after a really good, not OT nap, as there's never been enough day left to try her out recently.

I'm not sure how much to push the first A, and how much to cap that first nap, in order to best move forward. Guess I'm looking for suggestions of a) first A time and nap length to aim for after a short night (10hrs) and EW and b) how much more I could push her if we had the same 5.30ish start but after an EBT, so not such a short night.

[clairebear79]

Hiya hun

TBH I think you are pretty clued up about what she needs.  I think like you say the super long naps aren't helping b/c she simply isn't getting enough A time to BT after that length of nap.  And the extra day sleep is robbing her night sleep.  The trouble is, yes you can push BT later to get the extra A, but from a 5.30am start that makes for a very long day - which in itself can cause OT.

In some respects, although I know you don't like to cap the PM nap too, a slightly shorter nap would mean she would get enough A time in before BT & would hopefully do a longer night.

WRT the AM A time, I personally wouldn't let the AM nap slip any earlier than 9.30am, or you may encourage the EW to continue.  My LO EW'd for a very long time & this was our saving grace!  I don't think you necessarily need to push the AM nap out any further yet either.

IIWM I would probably try capping the AM nap shorter to 30 mins.  I can see you've been doing a 3hr A time between the AM & PM nap after a 40min nap, so I'd probably be inclined to shorten this a wee bit to something like 2.5-2.75hrs (might take a bit of trial & error to figure this out).  And in all honesty IIWM I'd probably cap the PM nap at 2hrs absolute max.  Yes we want this to be the longer nap, but I think that 2.5hrs total day sleep is still pretty darn good & if you let it go longer whilst she is still having a 30min AM nap then you will still have the same issue of long day, too much day sleep, short night.  I think the time to let the PM nap hit upwards of 2hrs is when the AM nap is no more than 10/15 mins & at that stage you are very close to dropping it altogether.

Towards the very end of our 2-1, I actually capped my DS's PM nap at 1.5hrs, rather than cutting his AM nap any shorter than 30mins b/c he was just a bear if I woke him sooner than this.  And he managed that fine but he was more like 13-14 months by then & we were doing a mix of 1 & 2 nap days.

HTH.

[Papaya]

Thanks so much Claire, it really does help to have someone else say I'm not completely off track. Your suggestions are pretty close to what I was thinking so I'll give them a try and see how we go

Ended up having her asleep by 6.35 tonight because she seemed so tired, and she's done two cry outs so perhaps a little OT...but fingers crossed she'll sleep through til a reasonable time.

[Papaya]

Well we slowly managed to pull the EW forward to closer to six, with a combination of W2S at around 4.15 and capping the PM nap. Then a couple of days of 5.30 again - think perhaps DH hadn't been waking her from PM nap quite soon enough.

THEN this morning, I heard LO whimpering and calling occasionally between 5.30 and 5.50. Was just thinking I'd get her up at six, when all went silent....and she put herself back to sleep until 6.45      

After a 7.30 BT last night, that's a brilliant night for her atm. With such a 'late' WU I can't do the day I have been doing (which has been 13.5 hrs). So I'm thinking today is the day to cap that nap more. I've just been waiting for a reasonable WU to do it.

So I'm thinking:

WU: 6.45
Nap: 10.15 - 10.35 or thereabouts (capped at 20 mins)
Nap: 2hrs from wake up from nap 1, so hope for 12.35 - 2.35/3ish
BT: 7.15ish

How does that look?

[clairebear79]

YAY for the later WU!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure this will reach you in time, that looks a pretty good plan for today.  2hrs A *might* be a wee bit short before that PM nap, esp if she has been doing 2.5hrs+ after a 30min nap. I remember when my DS got betweeen 13-14 months his A times suddenly jumped right up, so she might need more like 2h 15, but hopefully she will go down ok & give you a great nap! 

[Papaya]

In the end we had:

WU: 6.45
nap: 10.30 - 10.50 (20  mins)
nap: 1.05 - 3.15   (2hr10 - DH went in to wake her and she was stirring)
BT: 7.15

So you were right that she went 2hr15 - but I think I did get her down a couple of mins late so not sure if that contributed. I was thinking I might have to do 7.30 BT but she was well ready by 7.15

Today she was up at 6.30, and so far we've had a nap from 10.05 - 10.25. We'll see what the afternoon holds!

[clairebear79]

I think that looks like a good day hun.  If you think the A was too long after that 20min nap try a wee bit less today. 

I think you are right about the A to BT - after a nap of over 2hrs she may need more like 4.5hr A to give you a longer night, but of course she will still be ready for bed at 7.15 b/c she's been up 12.5hrs already.  Its not uncommon for days to get between 13-14hrs long at this stage in the 2-1 so its always an option to nudge BT a touch later if needed.  Of course if she goes down for her big nap a touch earlier you might not need to.

xx