Help!!! Her naps are shortening again! (7.5 months)

[RebekahDSC]

We dealt with the short nap monster for literally months!  Partly through a good easy routine, and partly through a maturing nervous system, they got much better for a little while and it was wonderful!  However, the last couple of days they seem to be going downhill again.  I must admit, I have been playing around with my DD's A time.  She is 7.5 months and we're kind of at a weird in between 3 and 2 naps stage - mostly dropping the catnap but every once in a while having to add it back in.  I'm anxious to get rid of the catnap for good, because her A times are long enough now that when she does have a catnap it is very late leading to a late bedtime and I have noticed that she tends to have EWs when she has a late bedtime.  So I tried to push a 3 hour awake time for a few days - not good, it led to her being OT.  So I backtracked and now we are in between 2.75 and 3 hours.  The thing is, NOW is when we are REALLY having problems with short naps - which makes me confused; is she OT or UT?  Sometimes she wakes after 35-38 minutes and other times after a little over an hour.  I try to get her to go back to sleep, but a couple of times in the last few days she has outright refused- even fussing/talking on and off for almost an hour once with me going back in again and again to replace the paci, etc. and other times she will go back to sleep but it can take a long time.  I thought I had the right A times figured out for a while there, but now I am so confused!  Is she OT or UT?  Does she need to keep the CN or ditch it?  Why will she sometimes not even go back to sleep?  What's going on?     Nights are STILL rough as well, so I am going kind of crazy here! Thank you for any insights!

[creations]

Hi there, sorry to hear naps aren't going so well atm.
There could be both OT and UT to make it even more confusing.  Possibly UT for the first nap leading to a short nap then OT for the rest of the day (or at least by BT).

Could you post a real day EAS for us to look at please?
And what is happening at night? (show it on your EAS if poss).

[RebekahDSC]

Thank you so much for the response, creations!!! Ok, everyday really varies depending on how long she naps and whether or not I can get her to fall back asleep when she wakes plus how long that process takes.  But here are two sample easys... one a catnap day and the other a non-catnap day.

Generally wakes around 6:00/6:15/6:30 - sometimes can get to go back to sleep but very often not - I generally keep trying until about 6:45/6:50 at which point I get her up (if she does go back to sleep, day can start as late as 7:55ish, but that is very rare - probably only if she had a very rough night).  Maybe I should just get her up then, but I treat it as a NW because otherwise her night is very short.

CATNAP DAY
Gets up around 6:45
7:30 Nurse (I wait to feed until 45 min. after gets up in order to fit with the rest of the day's easy)
8:30 Solids
9:38-11:08 Sleep (weird times, I know, but I'm trying to keep it in-between 2.75 and 3 hour A times so as to transition to 3 hours.)
Wake after 35-38 minutes, or 45, or a little over an hour- depends
Give pacifier, try to get back to sleep, if goes immediately back to sleep will generally sleep for one more sleep cycle so wakes after an hour and a half total; another option is that she doesn't go back to sleep after early waking and we keep trying until close to an hour and a half is up
11:30 Nurse
12:30 Solids
2:00-3:30 Sleep (once again, assuming she goes right back to sleep after re-inserting the pacifier, or sleeps through on her own)
3:30 Nurse
4:30/5:00 Solids
5:45-6:25ish Sleep
7:20ish Nurse
7:55ish Bedtime

Typical NWs
10pmish (sometimes) Give pacifier
11:10ish (or close to 4 hours after last nursing) Nurse
3:10ish (or close to 4 hours after last nursing) Re-swaddle?, Nurse
5:45ish Re-swaddle, re-insert pacifier
Between 6:00/6:15/6:30ish and 6:45 Re-insert pacifier again and again and again and again......

NON-CATNAP DAY
Gets up around 7:00
7:45 Nurse
8:45 Solids
9:53- 11:53
Wake after 35-38 minutes, or 45, or a little over an hour- depends
Give pacifier, try to get back to sleep, if takes a long time or if happens to sleep a long time on own without waking - for instance, sleep 9:53-10:30, fight sleep 10:30-10:50, sleep again 10:50-11:53 (these are very approximate amounts of time)
12:10ish (or however long I can get her to hold off in order to fit with the rest of the day, even though longer than 4 hours:() Nurse
1:10 Solids
2:46-4:16 Sleep
4:16 Nurse
5:16 Solids
6:35ish Nurse
7:10ish Bedtime

I hope this all makes sense.  Our routine is a little wacky these days as we try to transition from 3-2 naps. Maybe the wackiness is causing the nap trouble??? 
So, what do you think?

[creations]

Hi
I'd suggest sticking at the 3hrs for a few days and continue to try to extend that first nap if you can.  If she is happy when she wakes and really resists extending the nap then this would indicate that she is UT and ready for another increase.  At the moment the nap 'looks' UT but I'm not totally sure on that because it seems you are able to extend for possibly another hour which I doubt you'd be able to do if she was truly UT.

So, I'd do 3hrs for a few more days then increase another 10 or 15 mins and leave it there for a few days and see if she settles into the longer A.

I'd also really go for not no CN days more so, esp at this age.  If necessary you could go for an early BT instead.
What do you think?

[RebekahDSC]

Thanks so much for the response!  You make everything so much clearer with the OT/UT thing! So you'd extend soon to 3 hours, 15 minutes?  I was looking at the posts on typical A times for different ages, and it says 2.75-3 hours for a 7 month old.  She won't be 8 months for about another 2 weeks, but after that it says 3-4 hours so I guess we need to head in that direction maybe? It's so tricky to know how much to increase and when!

Today I kept her up for 3 hours in the morning and she slept straight through for an hour and a half for her first nap!   Then I kept her up for another 3 hours.  She slept for an hour and woke up.    Does that mean she needs a longer second A time?  I tried to get her to go back to sleep, but no such luck.

If her naps end up really short, that could make for an extremely early bedtime.  I'd be scared to do too early!  How early do you think is reasonable?  Plus, we've limited her to 2 feeds a night (every 4 hours like during the day) and that would complicate that.  Any thoughts?

Thanks so much for the wonderful help!

[creations]

she slept straight through for an hour and a half for her first nap!

Wonderful!

Then I kept her up for another 3 hours.  She slept for an hour and woke up.    Does that mean she needs a longer second A time?  I tried to get her to go back to sleep, but no such luck.

I would think a longer A here sounds about right yes.
The general way of things is to have pretty consistent A times throughout the day (ie 3hrs for all of them or 3hr 10 for all of them) however I've read that many LO's have a slightly shorter first A and the others a little longer.  My own DS was different, a very long first A and shorter on the rest.  It's important to observe your LO and just use the guidance times as guidance, also taking into account the level of stimulation in any one activity time.

If you continue to get 1.5 and 1hr naps you should be able to get to BT without a problem, although ideally you still want those naps to increase.  There's no harm in ever giving your LO an extra nap if it's needed, even at a much older age if there is pain, illness, teething or a high stimulation day they may need another short nap (just like an adult would), for your basic routine I wouldn't go for the CN days though simply because you want to offer as much constiency as possible, this is how your LO learns to know what to expect.  It's a habit that is formed so if you keep offering the CN habit she will keep expecting one.

With EBT (early bed time) many LOs will tag on the extra sleep they need to the night sleep, but some don't.  If you prepared yourself in advance and expect her to wake early in the morning you are less likely to feel disappointed when you have to get up extra early.  It can take a couple of days to get the routine back to a reasonable BT and WU time.  But you might be surprised and the night may extend.

I personally would have thought that one night feed would be enough at this age but I'd suggest a separate thread on the feeding board if you're unsure about this.

[RebekahDSC]

Update time! We have increased her first and last A times to 3 hours and her middle A time to 3 hours and 15 minutes and naps are (in general) going better.  Her first nap is usually an hour and a half straight through.    Her second nap is still a little confusing.  She tends to wake up around 50 minutes.  She'll almost always go straight back to sleep after we give her the pacifier.  I doubt UT since that is her longest A time, although I guess it's possible?  I'm considering overstimulation since the part of the day before that is often when we do the most stuff.  What do you think?  Should I increase the A time more or leave it be?

Thanks so much for the help!  I am thrilled that she is staying up longer and doing better!

[creations]

Tricky one that second nap.  If it's when you do the most plus the longest A maybe she is a little OS to get through a transition on her own.
I think I'd leave it a few more days and just observe how she is with it.  Or try W2S to see if you can by-pass needing to put the paci in (begin your normal soothing, shush/pat or adapted, prior to the wake up time and see her through the transition and into the next cycle) as this is a chance this wake up could be habitual expecting the paci re-plug.  What do you think?
If you leave it as it is I would expect that she'd either grow into the A time and level of stimulation (ie get used to it) or begin to give a much clearer signal of UT for that nap (waking happy refusing to resettle) and you can tweak the A time then.