Author Topic: EW causing 4.5 mo old to have up to 3 hours A time - cant fix schedule!!!  (Read 993 times)

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Offline Fefekabob

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4.5 month old on 4 hour EASY

-   Falls asleep independently, will only need a 5 minute wind down, I place him in his crib. He fusses for 2 minutes, then passes out easily
-   Total nap length = 4 hours 45 min (Naps very well... if I let him, can easily go 2 hours each time)
-   Total nighttime sleep = 8 – 9 hours (I don’t think this is enough for him OR myself!!  :'(
-   He only gets breast milk from the bottle (I exclusively pump)

Wakes up between 4:30 - 5:30am -  fussing, chatting, rolling around getting annoyed, Mantra crying for 10 minutes until about 6am… then he starts the real cry, so I go in and try and put him to sleep. He will get really restless and can’t settle. When it gets to be around 6:30am, I take him out of the room and start our day with a diaper change, a little playtime, then feed at  7

E  7:00 – 7:20 (5.5oz)
A I try and hold him until 8:30 (3-3.5 hours of awake time and he is VERY fussy, but otherwise it messes up our whole day’s routine)
S 8:30 - 10:30 /10:45  (I try not to let him go past 2 hours even though I know he can)

E 11:00 – 11:20 (6oz)
A 11:20 -  1:00 (about 2.5 hours awake time)
S 1:00 – 3:00

E 3:00 – 3:20 (6.5oz)
A 3:20 – 5:00 (2 hours awake time)
S  5:00 – 5:45 **** Always wakes up crying from this nap ****

E 6:00 (6.5oz) - gets really hungry, so I don't wait until 7
A 6:15 – 7:00
Bath 7:00 – 7:15
E 7:15 – 7:30 (an extra 2 oz)
S 7:45 - 10:15pm

DF – he keeps getting up earlier and earlier for this. Now it’s at 10:15pm (anywhere from 4 - 6.5oz)

NW-  EXACTLY 3 hours after the DF, fusses, cries, I will rub his back until he calms then I walk away and he will fall asleep after 5 minutes

EW – anywhere between 3-4 hours after the NW (could be 4:30-5:30am)


Question: First of all, I don't really understand why he is not hungrier in the morning. I usually have to force him to take the 5.5oz - he always seems so full, even though its been 8-9 hours since he last ate. Second, is his NW because of being OT during the day? Finally, what can I do to make him sleep longer at night? Do I shorten the naps? I am so confused...
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 00:04:58 am by Fefekabob »

Offline katie80

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I notice a couple things.  First, have you tried to feed him at that time? 4.5 mo is pretty early to go straight from a DF to morning without any feeds.  I know you say you have a tough time feeding him right away in the morning, but maybe it's because he's past the point of being hungry, yk. :-\ He might take a few oz at that early wake and then finish or take his regular bottle in the morning.

Second, the day is getting really long with that EW, leading to OT and probably perpetuating the EW. You're right to push him as far as you can in the morning to try to inhibit the EW and also not to let him sleep more than 2 hr (which would mean he's using it as an extension of his night sleep). But, the problem I see comes after the CN. He doesn't go to sleep for bedtime until 2 hr after the CN, which is really too long for his age.  Because of the long day, I'd make that A time 1.5 hr MAX, and possibly even try to have him down at 7 pm.  You're right to do the cluster feed like you are and can continue that with the earlier BT, just give the first one right after the nap.

Finally, if that first NW is exactly 3 hr after the DF every night, I'd say that's habitual and you can use wake-to-sleep to try to stop it.  You set your alarm for 2 hr after the DF (or 1 hr before the habitual wake) and go in and rouse him just enough to start a new sleep cycle (not fully wake) by rubbing his cheek or twitching his earlobe and that will hopefully push him past that waking. Here's a little more info on w2s: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=121269.0



Offline Fefekabob

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Hello,

Thanks for the reply.

Well, I decided not to give him the bottle because i know hunger is not driving the NW. He eats plenty during the day and when I give him a feeding in the middle of the night he won't take more than 2 oz.

But I did try out the earlier bedtime. I definitely agreed that he needs to be down sooner since he was having 14 hour days. But there has to be some other factor involved here because he woke up every 1.5 hours last night. The weirdest of all was the one at 8:53pm. He has NEVER woken up that early. He was screaming so loud that I just ended up giving him his DF bottle. After that he woke up at 12:22 and didn't settle until 1:40am, woke up at 2:56 (settled after 15 min), then 4:53 (settled after 3 min) then 5:48 (settled after 20 min)

There are only two things I can think of:
1. He has learned how to roll to his left for the past two weeks but hasn't figured out how to roll back to his right side. So he ends up at the end of his crib and gets frustrated sometimes cause he likes to sleep on his belly. But other times it seems like he likes to snuggle up to the edge because he will fall asleep that way (on his back)

2. We switched to a medium flow nipple two days ago. He went from taking 20-40 min or a feed to about 10 min. He hasn't choked on it and seems to do fine, he finishes so quickly that he whines when he's done (I don't think his brain has processed that he's full). So I know he is handling the flow just fine, but could this change have caused some gas issues?

Last night was awful! I feel so sorry for him and just want him to sleep comfortably. I don't know what else to do. I am so desperate for him to sleep. I am getting depressed because I just feel like my baby is the only one who doesn't STTN. I hear of the parents who have babies up for almost all day and then their baby sleeps 12 hours at night. How could this be? My baby has plenty of daytime sleep and he has NEVER been able to sleep through. Friends and coworkers all think he sleeps too much during the day. I know my baby and I beleive in the BW method to know they are wrong, but what gives? Why are their kids sleeping through?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 13:52:53 pm by Fefekabob »

Offline Fefekabob

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UPDATE: We made some progress...  ;D

Sleep times last night: total = 10hr 45min
6:15pm - 10:00pm (3hr45min)
10:30pm - 2:30am (4hr)
3:00am - 5:15am (2hr15min)
5:15am - 6:00am (45min) very light sleep


Last night I put him to bed at 6:00 - only 1 hour after his 30 min. catnap. He was out cold by 6:15 and really didn't fuss that much. Thank you katie80 for recommending the earlier bedtime!! It has made all the difference in the world! He seemed very calm and comfortable and didn't start stirring until about 10:00pm. At that point I decided to give him his DF before he woke up anymore.

After eating, it took him about 10 minutes to settle, then he was out again until 2:30am (4 hours later) - he was probably thinking it was feeding time, but I didn't go in his room. He ended up putting himself to sleep 30 minutes later without a whole lot of crying.

Then he slept from 3:00am-6:00am.
Well, he actually started fidgeting around 5:15 (after 3 sleep cycles) and kept moving about every 10 minutes. I was debating whether or not to feed him because I assumed he was not falling into deep sleep out of hunger... but I just kept watching on the monitor (his eyes were closed and he looked asleep). I was too afraid to wake him up and perpetuate an EW, but I think I probably should have. Because he kept lifting his leg up, slamming it down, making sucking noises, then quieting, then fidgeting again, then quieting down. I kept thinking he would go into deep sleep but he never did. He finally started really fussing at 6:00 at which point I thought I would try a NF (keep it quiet and dark)

As soon as I lifted him to feed him he was soooooooo excited to see me and had the biggest smile on his face. I figured he had 10 hours of sleep and it was probably better to start off the day. After the few weeks we have been having, I didn't want to push my luck!

He then had 2hr 20 min of awake time until he was asleep by 8:20. He is now napping and I am just hoping he makes it through to 2 hours.

QUESTIONS...
1. Should I be doing the feed at 5:15? What if he wakes up and smiles and wants to play? Tracy said that between 4-6 mo. they should be able to go 10 hours at night. If he ate at 10pm, he couldn't have been THAT hungry, right? I don't know what I should do.
2. If he naps 1.5 hours, is that enough to have him at 2 hours awake time?
3. When he settles into this routine, does it make sense to move BT a little later (in 15 min increments) in order to make the rest of the next day start later or do I keep it as is? Again, I don't want to push my luck but it would definitely help to have WU times of 7 instead of 6. Or should I just be focusing more on putting him down after 2 hours awake time and forgetting about the clock?


Offline katie80

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 ;D ;D Yay, I'm so glad to hear of your progress.  Your post sounds much happier. :) Let's see if I can answer some of your questions.

First, on the bad night... both things you mentioned (the rolling and faster flow nipple) can definitely account for NWs.  In fact, my guess is that's why he was up again last night at 2:30am, but it sounds like he's learning to deal with it. He'll probably be accustomed to both within a week or so.

1. Should I be doing the feed at 5:15? What if he wakes up and smiles and wants to play? Tracy said that between 4-6 mo. they should be able to go 10 hours at night. If he ate at 10pm, he couldn't have been THAT hungry, right? I don't know what I should do.
It's up to you, really.  I've always been a fan of feeding, even if it's just a little, so that I don't have to deal with the EW and I've never pushed through til morning until at least 6 mo. As I'm sure you know, breast milk is easily digested and I'd venture to say most BFing literature wouldn't expect a 10hr stretch until later, but that's not to say isn't possible.

2. If he naps 1.5 hours, is that enough to have him at 2 hours awake time?
I'm not sure I understand this question.  Are you talking about just during the day or before bed? A 1.5hr nap is considered a full nap, so he should be able to do a full A time afterward (2-2.5hr).

3. When he settles into this routine, does it make sense to move BT a little later (in 15 min increments) in order to make the rest of the next day start later or do I keep it as is? Again, I don't want to push my luck but it would definitely help to have WU times of 7 instead of 6. Or should I just be focusing more on putting him down after 2 hours awake time and forgetting about the clock?
Typically, to move wake-up later, you move everything a bit later. So, starting in the morning, you move the first nap out 15 min for a few days.  Then, you move the next nap out 15 min for a few days. And finally, move bedtime out.  He seems like he'd do really well with a push like that as he's been handling big A times already due to the EW.

I am getting depressed because I just feel like my baby is the only one who doesn't STTN. I hear of the parents who have babies up for almost all day and then their baby sleeps 12 hours at night. How could this be? My baby has plenty of daytime sleep and he has NEVER been able to sleep through. Friends and coworkers all think he sleeps too much during the day. I know my baby and I beleive in the BW method to know they are wrong, but what gives? Why are their kids sleeping through?
Finally, I can't post without replying to this.  Believe me, you are not the only one with a baby who doesn't STTN.  I'd say 4.5mo is really on the early side and there aren't that many babies I know who consistently do it by then (at least EBF babies, for sure). My DD didn't reliably do it til 6 mo and my DS still doesn't reliably do it.  They're all just different. I know parents who keep their babies up all day and then they sleep 12 hr at night too, and while it must be nice for them, my guess is their baby is sleeping like that due to pure exhaustion. :'(  The other thing is (and I can tell you this from experience), we seem to remember things being better than they really were.  So friends and co-workers who have LOs that 'slept through' from a certain time may well be forgetting the nights here and there that it was a struggle.  Some babies definitely are easy-going and do sleep through well, but at 4.5 mo, your DS is doing really well and I'd say is very close to STTN!



Offline Fefekabob

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Thank you Katie for the encouraging words. I am seeing improvements in the naps today and I see how much A time is vital for a good easy day. And I am going to give a small feed at 5 tomorrow and see what happens.

And I feel guilty for asking so much of my DS. He IS doing great and I don't want to expect any more of him. He can STTN whenever he feels necessary! I am going to stop listening to all those people out there who (as you mentioned) have forgotten what times were really like!

Thanks again for your help!

Offline katie80

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Don't feel guilty, hon, we all crave a full night's sleep! I just want to reassure you that he's doing great and you are too! It's hard being a BW mom sometimes when friends and family do things quite differently. But, I guarantee you'll reap the benefits of having a well-rested and BWd child for many years to come. :) I'm glad to hear the naps went well today.