Night wakings with 8mo....is it just teething?

[leahsmax]

Hello and thank you to anyone and everyone who reads this.......this is my first post but I have been reading for the past 3 months!
My LO is 8 months old and has never STTN!!!! His schedule (roughly) is as follows:
6/630/7  up/eat breast milk
7/8 breakfast...oatmeal and fruit
9/930-10/1030 sleep naps just recently started being 1 hour....they were 30-45 mins.
1030/11 eat breast milk if we are home, 6 oz of formula if we are out at a class/outing
12 lunch...rice cereal and veggies
130/2-230/3 sleep sometimes I can get 1.5 hours
3 eat breast milk
4/5 dinner...meat and veggies
Depending on the lengths of naps earlier Max may need another nap, 430/5-5/530 for 1/2 hour..I wake him up so he sleeps at bedtime
If no nap then bedtime is 630 and he gets 6-8 oz of formula right before bed
If he naps bedtime is anywhere between 730 and 9. 
 Bedtime routine is very short since he never stops moving and I can't get him to sit in my lap or just sit still...maybe bath, play with quiet toys, say "it's sleepytime", change diaper, put on his sleep suit, turn out light, shut door, turn on white noise, pat and hold him until he stops crying and then try to put him down in his crib.  I may need to pick up and pat two or three more times before I can just pat him in his crib til he is sleeping.  He has never been an independent sleeper, no pacifier, no lovie, just me! It may take him up to 45 mins to fall asleep.
Then sometime between 1 and 4 am he wakes up for an hour to two hours sometimes crying sometimes he wants to play.  I have stopped feeding him because that has made no difference...just done 1week without feeding so far.  This has been going on for one month now.  When he wakes I try patting him, singing, swaying, rocking, just holding him, letting him play in crib as I sit next to it...he cries when I leave the room..I have tried pu/pd,and just pd.  I know....I m not the most consistent person!!!! 
Milestones: He has been teething since he was 3 months old. He has 5 teeth currently.
  He can crawl and is pulling himself up and cruising around furniture so if he is awake in MOTN he is usually moving around in the crib....like I said....he doesn't stay still. 
I know the post is long and probably all over the place....I am at a total loss at what to do.....I am averaging 3-4 hours of sleep at night.  Max is so tired his eyes are red most of the time!  I feel so bad for him!
Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!!!

[*happy*]

hi!just posting with some hugs for you.it's so hard when thye don't sleep for long stretches at night.
i'm a newbie too, so i'm fairly clueless, but just having a quick glance at your easy, i'm wondering about your A times....are they 3 hours?maybe LO is ready for a slight increase?my own LO is always on the shorter side of the A time allowances, always has been, so we are only just about managing 3hr 15now.HTH.
i know some of the others will be along soon with some advice about the settling to sleep....xxx

[Erin M]

Hi, welcome!

I totally agree with PP about the A time.  Wide awake in the MOTN often means too much day sleep -- or too much sleep close to bt.  what helped his naps get longer recently?  If you get two decent naps out of him, that would also keep your day to 12 hrs. 

As for settling, the inconsistency is tough on him -- I'd either work on consistently using pd (no PU at this age!) or pick one prop and only use that one (knowing full well you'll have to wean it later on).

Info on pd here: How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)
And sample routines and a link on A time
chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months
Average A times and "Is my baby ready to increase A time?"

What do you think?

[leahsmax]

Thank you for replying!  I feel so clueless!!  I think it may be the A times. I just recently increased them to 3 hours but maybe he can do more.   He is so tired, or at least seems to be...rubbing eyes, burying his face into me, red eyes, and yawning. It was just a miracle that I got hour long naps...they started when we were at the beach, he slept great there...just not at night.  The naps have started to go back to 30 mins....so maybe it is time to increase A.   He never sleeps more than 2.5 hours during the day.  I had two days where he only woke up for 15 mins in MOTN!! But last night was 1.5 hours again!!! His EASY was all over the place due to running errands....he is so confusing!! Thank you so much for reading...it is great to have a place to vent!! I will also try to stick with PD.  Do I do it even if he is crying really hard?   
Thanks again!

[*happy*]

i've never done PUPD so can't help there.30min naps are usually OT i think.my LO's sleepy cues are so similar to her  "i'm bored" cues...could that be your LO to maybe?what EASY are you following at the moment?x

[leahsmax]

Last night max was up 415 to 515.  His day yesterday was all off because we were not home all day.  He slept for 30 mins in am, 30 to 45 mins around lunch and then from about 330 to 5.  We then went to dinner til 830 and he slept in his car seat in the car and after we got home til 415.  Then up 415 to 515.  Then slept til 7. Today so far he slept 10 to 1035. 
If 30 mins is overtired, why do I want to increase A times?  I tried to do 3 hour 15 min today but he fell asleep in 5 mins where is usually takes him 15 to 20 (if not longer).  I tried PD to get him to fall back asleep, he laughed and made it a game until he hit his on the crib and I picked him up. 
After 30 mins of that it was time to feed him. 
If I increase A times, his nap runs into his E.   I have no problem waiting to feed until he wakes up, but if he does 45 min nap, do I feed or try to put back to sleep? 
I guess I should shoot over to the EASY board, but my main concern is the NWs!
If anyone has anymore thoughts I would greatly appreciate it!

[Erin M]

If 30 mins is overtired, why do I want to increase A times? 

It's not for all babies.  With us, I always had to look at how he was when he woke up, regardless of nap length.

I tried PD to get him to fall back asleep, he laughed and made it a game until he hit his on the crib and I picked him up.

^^^^^^^^This is what makes me feel that he's UT -- an OT baby doesn't laugh and make things a game, they just cry and try to fall back asleep, but have trouble doing so because of the OTness. 

Do I do it even if he is crying really hard?

You can PU if he is crying really hard -- I think there's some specifics on that in the "How to do PU/PD" link above -- though let me know if there isn't, I could be wrong.

His day yesterday was all off because we were not home all day. 

I know it's really hard, but with all of my kids I found when things got really off, we had to stick close to home for a few days and work on getting the naps right and work on observing cues carefully.

It was just a miracle that I got hour long naps...they started when we were at the beach, he slept great there...just not at night.

He's also at that age where the "quality" of the A time matters, not just the length.  When they get bigger and more active, they need to not only be awake, but to be moving around as well -- if I keep James in the stroller all morning, or the car seat, I'm going to get shorter naps because he hasn't tired himself out as much -- the fact that you got longer naps at that beach makes me think he might need some more physical activity during his A time. 

He never sleeps more than 2.5 hours during the day. 

And this could just be who he is -- we definitely want to get him sleeping well during the night, but keep in mind that he's probably going to be on the low end for sleep totals when you look at sample routines for his age.  My ds never took a nap of longer than an hour or so until he moved to one nap. 

[leahsmax]

Erin-
Thank you for responding....sorry it has taken a while to update..I wanted to try PD and see how that goes for a few days. 
EASY has been all over the place....not really his schedule this week. But I have noticed that if Max goes to sleep by 830/9 pm he will sleep until 530/630. I can live with this!  So right now his bedtime has been moved back.
I have a few concerns (let me know if I need to post somewhere else).
The time between last nap and bedtime varies greatly: between 4 and 6 hours. I am worried about OTness. 
It has started to take 45 mins to 1 hour to get him to sleep again...this was an issue a few months ago. This may be due to starting PD though...
Max still only takes 2 1hour naps on a good day. 
Today EASY looked like this:
WU 6
E 645 BM
A had to run errand and take Max so...
S 740 to 820
A solids 830
E 1130 almost fell asleep
A solids 1230
S 210-320
E BM 330
A solids 430
E BM 645
730 ready for bed, hold until quiet and eyes closed, PD til sleep at 815
He was not giving many sleep signals at 730, I just wanted to try to keep consistent bedtime...as much as possible.....
I know EASY isn't perfect...but all week it was off.....
?: how do I keep OT at bay?  It will catch up to him soon, Right?  Or do I not worry about it since he is sleeing through the night for the first time ever!!!!
I am trying to keep him physically active for A, he never stops moving...and we attend a class almost everyday...not sure what elae to do!!
Thanks again for reading and responding!!!

Leah

[Erin M]

?: how do I keep OT at bay?  It will catch up to him soon, Right?  Or do I not worry about it since he is sleeing through the night for the first time ever!!!!

It's possible that since he is sleeping so well at night, that he needs more A time before his naps.  We often find that babies need shorter A times after a broken night's sleep, so it stands to reason that the opposite would be true. 

My ds at his age took 2 1-hour naps on a good day, shorter on other days.  That was just the way that things were with him and there wasn't anything I could do to make them longer (despite all my efforts at tweaking A times, etc).
 

730 ready for bed, hold until quiet and eyes closed, PD til sleep at 815

Do you always hold him until he's quiet with his eyes closed?  It may be that the shift to his bed disturbs him and wakes him up again. 

You've also got a long day there, over 14 hours from WU to BT -- now at his age,  I think it's unlikely that he'd do a 12 hour night, but 11 would be closer (and I understand you tried to get him asleep earlier with no luck).  I wonder if he'd do ok with capping one of his naps?  Some babies at his age are ready for that and do really well with it.  That way, you could still get the long A to bed that he seems to need and also keep your day a little bit shorter.

I feel like I'm all over the place now LOL.  Does any of this make sense to you? 

[leahsmax]

Thank you again erin
Max has been consistently sleeping for 9-10 hours at night. 
Up at 6 and asleep by 830 pm.   
He has 2 1 hour naps on a good day....he'll surprise me with a nap of 1.5 hour.  Lately he has been taking naps in the car and not following EASY due to classes/errands.
Your advise does make sense....I always feel like I am all over the place with Max! 
I m concerned about his long day but since he will not sleep longer then 10 hrs at the very most I hesitate putting him to bed any earlier. 
He seems tired around 6 but I change his scenery and he is fine
If I try to put him to bed earlier he'll stay awake until 8/830 anyway.
I do hold him until his eyes are closed...I am slowly starting to put him down earlier and pat him in the crib.
A few nights he fell asleep without me patting...just standing there...and sometimes just with my hands on his back. 
I am working on it.  I also have others (MIL, babysitters, husband) who may put him down for naps and bed and we do it similarly but not exactly...so it is hard to make changes...
I do have a question about naps........let me know if I should post in naps or EASY forum....
If we have a class in the morning, Max will sleep on our way there and on the way home.  Sometimes it is 30 to 45 mins...do I consider these2 naps or one continued?  Then he may need a nap around 4... Should I cap it at 30 mins or let him sleep 1 hour? This nap is always 1 hour! 
 
Thank you again!!!

Leah

[Erin M]

I m concerned about his long day but since he will not sleep longer then 10 hrs at the very most I hesitate putting him to bed any earlier.

It could just be that's the way he is.    Some babies don't need as much sleep as others!

I do hold him until his eyes are closed...I am slowly starting to put him down earlier and pat him in the crib.
A few nights he fell asleep without me patting...just standing there...and sometimes just with my hands on his back. 
I am working on it.  I also have others (MIL, babysitters, husband) who may put him down for naps and bed and we do it similarly but not exactly...so it is hard to make changes...

Slow change is ok -- whatever is working well for you (and it sounds like this is!) is totally fine. 

If we have a class in the morning, Max will sleep on our way there and on the way home.  Sometimes it is 30 to 45 mins...do I consider these2 naps or one continued?  Then he may need a nap around 4... Should I cap it at 30 mins or let him sleep 1 hour? This nap is always 1 hour! 

I guess I wouldn't worry as much about how many naps it is as opposed to how it's affecting him.  I'd say that if he's able to still take an afternoon nap after that, then whatever he does is ok.  I would guess that eventually he'll only sleep on the way there (or the way home) and eventually not sleep at all as he's able to stay awake for longer.  My ds will occasionally still fall asleep in the car despite being on 1 solid nap for quite some time now and it doesn't seem to throw his day off.  As for capping that nap, if your night is ok and it's not messing with bed time, I'd be tempted to leave it -- if he starts resisting BT, then I'd cap it and see where that gets you. 

[leahsmax]

Thank you erin again!
I don't think Max needs a lot of sleep...my husband doesn't...unfortunately I do!
The crazy nap schedule does not seem to be affecting night time....
I guess what we are doing is working....until Max decides to throw a wrench in it again!!!
Thank you for all your help!

[Erin M]

I don't think Max needs a lot of sleep...my husband doesn't...unfortunately I do!

My nephew is exactly the same way!  My sister was so happy when he got old enough to get up in the morning and not bother her LOL.