Back to square one! Again!

[coradyne]

Hello again,
I really don't know where to start...
My son will be 8mo in a few days and he had sleep issues since he was 3 wo, I think. I really tried to put him on EASY from day one, but it never really worked for us... He never seemed to have any securely established habit regarding his sleep (during the night and during the day). And since we introduced solids (3 months ago), things got a lot messier regarding his schedule... I want to keep BF him for as long as possible so all his E times were out of order...
Example:
He used to put himself to sleep for BT without any problems... It lasted for about two months. Than he started calling for us and he took 30min-1h to fall asleep. This phase lasted for about a month. Than he started falling asleep on his own again... And now, well, you never really know: is he going to do it on his own, is he going to need assistance (music, singing, story telling, breast feeding... one of them)?
Another example:
His NW. He started normally: every 3 hours NW, when he was a baby. They were more frequent sometimes, but on a large scale things evolved until he was able to STTN (first time at apx. 8wo) and than for a whole week in a row (at apx. 3mo). Than he started waking up again... I thought it was because he was hungry, so we introduced solids (at 5mo) and cereal before bedtime (at about 6mo). But he kept waking up. Occasionally he would sleep 5 or 6 hrs in a row, but usually it's 1 or 2 NW per night. It's at apx. the same time for 2or 3 nights in a row, and than he changes it... So no pattern there.
 
The only thing that remained unchanged since almost day one is that when he does wake up during the night, he doesn't stay up. I just feed him and he gets back to sleep.
 
The fact that is the most intriguing for me is that he is an Angel/Textbook (8/7 points) baby when I do Tracy's test. And he really is a good baby, if it were't for his sleep issues. I thought I misinterpreted the results so I asked my husband to repeat the test... It came out almost the same. So my guess is that he is a textbook baby regarding everything else, but he is a spirited one regarding sleep. Is that even possible???

So now, I feel like I would need to start everything all over again, but I really don't know where to start... How to introduce EASY to a 8mo baby, who is eating 3 solid meals a day and 3 BF during the day (and maybe 1 or 2 during the night)?? And he is now super-active (he started crawling and standing about 2 weeks ago) and super-curious about everything... Is it worth even trying? Everyone keeps telling me that he will eventually grow out of it... But I would really like my nights back. Now.

During the day he usually sleeps for apx. 2.30-3 hrs in total. It may be 3 short naps or one 2 hrs nap and one short one (30 min-1hr)...

So, bottom line: any advice is welcome!


 

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))) - it's so draining getting up every night   You must be really tired and you have my total sympathy.

Does your LO sleep independently (on a good day) - as in can he get himself fully from awake to asleep without you helping in any way?  Any props e.g. paci/rocking that he has to have for every sleep time?

Part of me is thinking that even at 8 months it's not unusual for a BF baby to have a night feed, especially as you're only doing 3 during the day.  I think the WHO recommends 4 BFs/24h up to around 10 months so genuine hunger could be an issue - is there a reason you've dropped a daytime feed?

His total day sleep looks good to me in terms of amount - what is his routine like?  Could you post a typical day in EAS format?  I wonder if there could be any OT/UT at play?

For an idea, here's my DD's current routine, though timings are constantly adjusting as her A times change. 

WU & BF 6.30-7am
Breakfast an hour later
Nap 1 for 1h30ish
BF on waking
Lunch an hour later
Nap 2 for 1h approx (capped if needed)
BF on waking
Tea an hour later
BF as part of BT routine, in bed for about 7pm

Is that any help?

[coradyne]

It's difficult to write an EAS day because it isn't the same every day... But I'll try to write something close to reality. It's usually like this:
~7.30 WU&BF (after that, he usually falls back asleep for another 1-1.5 hrs)
so ~9.00 2nd WU -> A time
~10.00 E breakfast (fruit meal: 1 banana+1 peach or something similar)
~10.30 A time
~11.30 S 1st nap (it usually is the long nap; if not, the 2nd one will be the long nap)
~13.00 A time
~14.00 E lunch (vegetable meal: apx. 8oz)
~14.30 A time
~15.30 S 2nd nap (if I feel he didn't eat as much at lunch, I BF him before putting him down)
~16.30 A time (if I didn't BF him before his nap, I BF him now)
~18.00 E dinner (cereal+fruit/yogurt: apx. 6 oz)
~18.30 A time (we go out in the park) Sometimes he falls asleep in his stroller for 20-45 min, sometimes he doesn't. If he does we stay a bit longer...
~19.30 (if no 3rd nap)/ 20.30 (if 3rd nap) bath time
~20.00/21.00 BF&bedtime

after that he will wake up once, twice or three times until WU. I tried giving him water if he woke up before 3.00 and it worked for 4-5 days, but than his waking hours changed again and it didn't work anymore.

How old is your daughter?

My son doesn't have any props that I know of. On a good day, I just put him in his crib, I put some music and I turn on the mobile  and he falls asleep. Meanwhile, he started reaching for his mobile and I had to take it off, but on a good day, music is enough. There where times when he fell asleep completely on his own (without music) but i think that was before he started standing and putting himself in a sitting position. If he keeps calling me (he rarely cries, he just screams...), I turn off the music and I just sit on the floor next to his crib. Sometimes it's enough. But, on the other hand, there where times when nothing put him to sleep, not even BF, not even putting him in his swing... He managed to stay awake for 5-6 hrs in a row, although he was really tired.

When I started solids, I really lost the way of his routine... I didn't know when to BF and when to give him solids - I read opinions saying I should BF after he eats solids, opinions saying I should give him solids after BF... I didn't know what to do... So I just did as my friends did: BF as a supplement for the solid meal, if necessary. My milk supply wasn't that great anyway so I thought that would mean I would have enough milk for the BT meal, when he should eat enough to go through the night. That was my reasoning, but now, when I read what you say, I guess it was wrong... I'm afraid that if I start BF once more a day, I wouldn't have enough for evening... I mean, usually it takes min 4 hrs to have enough breast milk for him to be happy at BT... Should I try harder or should I just introduce formula?

And, off-topic: if I introduce formula, can he drink it from a sippy cup? He doesn't know how to use the bottle, but he drinks water from his cup easily.

[jessmum46]

DD is 8 months tomorrow so similar age to your LO

There are a few things I notice which may or may not help you both routine-wise and feeding-wise.

Routine - his A times especially in the early part of the day seem quite low for his age - 2.5h if I'm reading it right?  Typical A times at 8 months are in the 3-4h range.  Do you notice more NWs on the day he has the late CN?  I suspect that may be causing a few issues... The other thing I notice is your day is pretty short - only 11h if he has 2 naps and 12h if he takes a CN.  With 2.5-3h day sleep I'd bet some of his NWs are due to UT............  I think you need to make sure his A times are a good 3h, aim for 2 naps of 1-1.5h, and avoid that late pm CN if at all possible unless you get two very short naps. 

So perhaps something more like:

WU 9am (I am assuming here that you want a 9-9 day?)
Nap 12-1.30pm
Nap 4.45-5.45pm
BT 9pm

If he's more tired when you put him down he may put up less of a fight.

Feeds/solids - what made you think your milk supply wasn't good?  The more you feed, the more you will make so holding off feeding to have enough for later is actually counter-productive in the long term.  The BW way is to offer solids an hour or so after a milk feed at this age as milk is still the main source of nutrition.  I notice your LO is taking large amounts of solids but not much protein, fat or carbs?  I suspect they are robbing his milk intake.....as in they are filling him up with bulk, but the calorie content is very low.  IIWY I'd probably start doing a BF when he wakes in the morning and after naps, and before bed (so 4 in total), and offer solids an hour later.  I'd add in some protein (meat, lentils, cheese etc) and fat (cheese, yoghurt, milk on cereal, avocado) to his solid meals too to make sure you're getting some more calories into him. 

Oh and yes, fine to give formula in a sippy if you want to   You could always offer it as a top-up after a breast feed if you are concerned you don't have enough milk to satisfy him.

[coradyne]

OH, thank you so much... When I read what you wrote it made total sense...
I'm trying to extend his A time, but he is very sleepy, especially in the morning (twice, he fell asleep while I was feeding him solids ) ) I realize now I kept the 2hrs A time for way too long... It's such a relief to know that he actually only needs 2 naps a day, not 3, as I was thinking (since he was 4 mo). Silly me!

So, my goal for the next days will be to keep him up for at least 3 hrs. and see if that makes a change. Meanwhile, I will also try to BF him when he wakes up and see how my milk supply will evolve. Fingers crossed!

I am giving him protein with his vegetables (I didn't mention it by mistake). I'm giving him either cheese or an egg yolk, and I add about 2 tbsp of yogurt to almost every meal, since he likes it so much. I feed him beans, peas and lentils also, since I'm raising him vegetarian.

Question: when you say "milk on cereal" is that cow milk, formula, goat milk or breast milk? I read so many recipes for babies which only said "milk", but on the other hand I know that cow milk is not yet good for him and breast milk is out of question as I can't possibly pump out enough for another meal. I also tried to stay away from formula until now, as I had this idea (I don't know if it's crazy or not) that once I start giving him formula, he will suckle less so my milk supply will decrease... What do you think?

Oh, and another question: what do you do if you are not home when he wakes up from a nap? Do you pump to leave him a bottle? Do you give him formula? Do you skip it? :-s

Thank you again for your posts!









 

[jessmum46]

I tend to pump for milk to put on my LOs cereal - only needs about 1-2oz at a time.  However, UK advice is it's ok to use cow's milk as part of the diet, it just shouldn't be the main milk.  My LO doesn't take milk from a bottle or sippy so I'm here pretty much all the time!  It's probably fine to skip the occasional feed, though if you could pump or leave formula that would be better and ensure your LO gets enough calories.  Just a thought...........when you say you're away from your LO, have you recently returned to work?  Only mention as some LOs get 'reverse cycling' where they wake more at night to make up for time missed with you during the day..............may have totally misinterpreted though!

I wouldn't have thought formula would decrease your supply if you offer it only as a top-up after a BF - do you offer both sides? 

With the A times - a jump up to 3h might be too much all at once, so maybe try 2h45 for a few days, then bump it up again? 

[coradyne]

Hi,
I'm back with a quick update and some more questions

For the last two and something weeks, I have been trying to BF my son 4 times during the day and, at the same time, to increase his A time. Also, I introduced about 1-2oz of formula at BT, as I had the feeling he wasn't getting enough breast milk before bedtime. Some results did show up: he had two long nights per week (7-8hrs of sleep before a NW), which is great, as we haven't had one of those in a long time. But a pattern is not yet established, or at least I can't see it. His other nights were similar to his previous behavior (2 to 3 NW per night)... His naps were also generally better: about 1.20-1.40 each (two naps per day).

The main problem is that I can't manage to increase his A time. He is always very tired in the morning, he gets very sleepy while he's eating his solids and I have to put him to bed right after his meal (he almost falls asleep with his head on the tray  ). If I try to keep him up after that just for, let's say 15 minutes, it seems like the sleepiness goes away and he falls asleep harder and sleeps for 45 min to 1 hour max. I can't get him to fall back asleep after a short nap, no matter how short it was. He is just so happy to see me, and he keeps standing up in his crib and make jump-like moves... So, almost the same thing happens at lunch. Bottom line: he usually wakes up from his second nap at 4-4.30 p.m. and he doesn't want to take another nap afterwards no matter what I do. He gets very tired, as his bedtime is around 8.30-9.00 pm and he literally falls asleep when I BF him before bedtime. I have to struggle to make sure he eats enough before falling asleep, because if he doesn't he is up before midnight for another BF. The long afternoon is exhausting if we don't take him for a walk outside, as he gets crankier and crankier. So... questions:
1. If he wakes up at 8.30 in the morning, should I adjust his BT hour accordingly?
2. If he has a short first nap in the morning, (let's say he wakes up at 9.00, BF at 9.00, solids at 10.00, nap at 11.30 and wakes up at 12.20) should I BF when he wakes up, or should I wait until 13.00? Also, lunch should be at 14.00, or just one hour after BF? If I wait until 14.00 he will probably be already tired and uncooperative and may not eat his whole meal...
3. Could you give me an example of a nap time ritual? Right now, I just lay him in bed, darken the room and leave. I put on some music in the other room, loud enough for him to hear and that's it. When he is as sleepy as I was telling you, he usually falls asleep in 10 minutes, but if I don't put him to bed right after his meal (trying to extend his A time) it doesn't go as easily. He just keeps "calling" me and standing up in his crib.
Thank you in advance.

[jessmum46]

Hi again - you sound like you've made some great progress!

If I try to keep him up after that just for, let's say 15 minutes, it seems like the sleepiness goes away and he falls asleep harder and sleeps for 45 min to 1 hour max.

Could you post what the whole day looks like at the moment with wake times/nap times?  This could be that he's getting OT and then getting a second wind, or it could be that actually the sleepy signs you're seeing are boredom/needing a change of scene, and that he's doing an UT nap (45 mins-1h would typically be UT).  Hard to say without seeing what the whole day looks like though.

1. If he wakes up at 8.30 in the morning, should I adjust his BT hour accordingly?

I'd aim for around a 12h day, so if he's up at 8.30am, then BT at 8.30pm, or sooner if he doesn't nap well.

2. If he has a short first nap in the morning, (let's say he wakes up at 9.00, BF at 9.00, solids at 10.00, nap at 11.30 and wakes up at 12.20) should I BF when he wakes up, or should I wait until 13.00? Also, lunch should be at 14.00, or just one hour after BF? If I wait until 14.00 he will probably be already tired and uncooperative and may not eat his whole meal...

I'd just BF when he wakes up, then do lunch about an hour later.  No point in leaving it until he's too tired to enjoy it! 

3. Could you give me an example of a nap time ritual?

15 mins before I want to put my LO down we sit quietly and look at books for a few minutes.  We then have a short walk around the house/garden for 5-10 mins while I talk/sing to her.  We go into her room, dim light, into sleep sack, give LO her lovie, put some music on, put her down and leave the room.  What you do sounds great to me


One thought that occurred to me reading your post is whether your LO might fit more of a 2-3-4 pattern (or more like a 2.5-3-3.5).  It's not a typical BW routine but some Mums have found that it's what their LOs seem to fall into.  So you'd do 2.5h before the first nap (which may be short), 3h before the second nap (hopefully a long one) and then 3.5h to BT.  WDYT?

[coradyne]

Hi,

I will post the yesterday report, although yesterday was not an ideal day, but then again the ideal days are so rare that we can consider them an exception... (Please consider a + or - 15 min marge, because I don't remember everything exactly)

Night before: a good night, went to bed at apx. 9 pm, NW at 4.30 (so, i guess we could consider it a STTN), and WU at 8.30 the next morning.
E: 8.45 - BF
A: 9.00
E: 9.45 - fruit meal (he got very sleepy, as usual...)
S: 10.15 - 1st nap; i put him to bed and he was asleep in 5 min; nap lasted apx. 1.45 (wu at 12.00)
E: 12.10 - BF
A: 12.20
E: 13.30 - vegetables meal (again, sleepy, but I tried to keep him up longer)
A: 14.20
S: 14.50 - 2nd nap; he fell asleep in apx.10-15 min; nap lasted max. 40 min (wu at 15.30)
E: 15.50 - BF
A: 16.00 (we left the house to do some errands)
E: 17.30 - cereal meal (we were in a post office )
A: 18.00 - he fell asleep for maybe 10 min in the car, on our way to the park, but I thought it was too short to be considered a nap
     20.00 - bath time
E:  20.15 - BF + formula
S:  20.45 - off to dreamland
Night after: NW1 at 2.00, NW2 at 6.30 and WU this morning at 8.15

The 2-3-4 thing seems more suitable for him, only it's like a 2.5 - 2.5 - 4.5 in his case

I don't think I could be misinterpreting the signs he shows while eating: he yawns a lot, rubs his eyes, grabs his ears, he stares... Sometimes he even lays his head down on the tray and sits like that for a few seconds. I guess he could get bored (I know I am ) , since his meals last about 45 min if he is not very cooperative, but maybe it's a leading-to-sleep boredom

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I don't know how you do it... I am staying at home and I barely find the time to ask the questions... 



 

[jessmum46]

I do wonder if he's showing those sleepy signs because his body's just used to going to sleep at that time of day?  I know my LO often seems very sleepy around 2h after getting up in the morning - but the signs last 10 mins or so and then she perks up and is completely happy for another hour or more before going for a nap.

IIWM, I'd try to slowly push out his A time to a more consistent 3h across the day.  I just wonder if some of your issues at night are UT ones because of the short A times?  However, there could also be OT at play because of the long last stretch to BT - it's tricky really to know exactly what's going on.  When he looks like he's getting sleepy what about getting him out of the chair straight away and engaging him with an exciting toy, or taking him for a walk round the garden, and see if distracting him means he can stay awake longer?

[coradyne]

Hi again... I was hoping I would never have to post in this topic again, since after our last update we had a complete week of bliss: almost regular naps (first one just over 1.30 hrs, and the second one just under) and long nights (at least 8 hrs each, but we had a miracle 12hrs straight night which I nostalgically remember).
After that, out of a sudden, he started waking up again during the night at about 1.30 a.m. for 4 nights in a row, and I feared a pattern would establish. It didn't. The next night he changed the waking hours and until today he doesn't seem to have anything settled in that matter. The new WU are a bit different from the ones before the miracle week: he wakes up suddenly and screaming, like when he's scared or when he's in pain. I didn't notice any bruises or redness, nor did I hear him the sides of his crib harder than usual... So, I thought maybe he's dreaming... I read someplace (i don't remember where) that when they start dreaming, the babies get very confused and scared until they learn how to differentiate the real world from the dream world... But I don't remember when was that suppose to happen or how long it would take them... If this theory sounds familiar to you, maybe you remember more of it... He is also teething, but I can't believe his teeth ache could last about two weeks...
So now, again, we have "lottery" nights, as I like to call them - you never know if he's going to wake up once or twice or even three times in the 12 hrs that are supposed to be his nighttime. And I could live with that IF we had at least good naps during the day... But four days ago he started waking up after 20-30 min of his first nap (which used to be his best one for many weeks in a row). His second one is usually short too... 45 min max.
I mention that I managed to stretch his A time to about 3 hrs (I was putting him to bed after about 2.45 hrs and he would fall asleep in 15-20 min). I think the complete change was made during that wonderful week...

So, questions:
1. Do you think it's his dreaming that's waking him up? Did your DD experience anything similar?
2. What should I do when he wakes up after a 20 min nap... He is obviously still tired but refuses to go back to sleep (I once tried for more than 1 hour). He did go back to sleep about two hrs later, when I put him outside in fresh air, in his swing. There he slept for 1.30hr.
3. You mentioned in an earlier post that he should have 4 BF during the day until 10mo. As this day is approaching, how should the change take place? Which BF should I renounce to? If you could point to me where Tracy wrote about that (instead of re-writing that yourself), I have all her books and I could read it there...

Thank you again for everything you do!

[jessmum46]

Sounds like he may have been waking at 1.30am UT after a week of really good naps, and then got OT from night wakings and short naps - what do you think?  20-30 min first nap sounds like built-up OT or discomfort to me.  Have you tried medicating for the teeth?  It can take a really long time for them to come through sometimes.  Overall you may find he needs more than 3h A time now - some LOs are beginning the 2-1 nap switch by this age.  Have you seen this? 10/ 11mo sleep gone wonky? Read this first!

I'm not sure about dreaming - for us, NWs have generally been a routine issue or discomfort.

If he wakes after a 20 min nap and you can't resettle, I'd do exactly what you did - short A time afterwards (probably 2h or so) and let him sleep as long as he wants for the next nap.  You may need to do an EBT on those days.

I'm not sure exactly what Tracy wrote about BF - I know that a lot of BF research has moved on since then so the information in her books may be a little out of date.  A lot of people drop to 3 feeds between 10-12 months - the timing depends on what suits you really.  Remember any dairy your LO has counts towards milk intake, so if your LO takes 3 good feeds plus e.g. milk on cereal and some cheese/yoghurt I would have thought that would be ok.  We haven't quite got there yet so can't offer you any experienced advice on how to drop a feed - have you had a look over on the BF board?

Could you follow his cues/APOP some naps for a day to help him catch up then maybe try increasing his A time to 3h15?