5 Month Old - total nap failure: can anyone help at all?

[cronbace]

Our son is an extremely tricky sleeper, we are now beyond desperate and distraught, if anyone could help, it would mean so much.

He is 4 months, 3 weeks old.
Now on 4 hour EASY (since just before he turned four months).
Wake at 7am (7:30 latest);  Nap 1 after 2 hours up; second feed at 11am, Nap 2 after 2 hours again (1-3pm); catnap 45 mins approx between 5 and 6 pm; in bed for the night at 7pm, DF at 10:30/ 11pm. (These are the plans we are working towards, they do not actually occur due to nap problems).

Despite starting him on a 3 hour EASY when he was 3 days old, staying consistent throughout and using no props he has always had major troubles in terms of naps. He has been a good night sleeper, sleeping first through the night at 6 weeks old.
He never responded well to Sh-pat and naps were always problematic.
PUPD has had variable results (started using it when he was 3 months): it was successful initially in that it taught him how to settle himself to sleep without any intervention (and of course, without crying, we never do any from of ‘controlled crying'). For a while we had some success (never consistently), and he would sleep some days with one good nap and another of maybe 45 mins. The 45 min nap scenario has been a major feature. W2S was not successful, he simply got into a habit of waking at the 20 minute mark.

So, the situation now is that he is now refusing to sleep on either of his naps during the day. He is not overtired when he goes to bed. I also know that he does need the sleep, because when he does not sleep during the day he sleeps terribly in the evening and wakes at night, where his normal behaviour is to sleep well from 7pm to 7am.

Right now he is going to his cot for both of his naps. Often he will do mantra crying for a while. Sometimes this escalates, at which point we do PUPD. This will often settle him (sometimes not), but he will not go to sleep. Other times he will be calm in his cot but does not sleep (however this results in him being extremely tired for the rest of the day)....
He has a consistent wind down ritual. His room is completely blacked out and there are no toys / distractions. I don’t think he can stay up for longer then 2 hours, he starts to get tired around that point; however I don’t think he is overtired on going to his cot. He is and always has been a great feeder (breast fed) and despite his naps being skewed, we still keep him to his feeding schedule, every four hours. Since birth, in nearly 5 months, he has probably done about 7 days when he slept in tune with the routine.

We are total BW devotees and have read the book three times and followed it to the letter, but it is not working. He is a very healthy, but also very alert and active (sitting up alone by now and making moves to start crawling).

Can anyone help at all? Sorry for the long post. Our lives are miserable at the moment. If anyone could take some time to offer any advice at all, it would be so much appreciated.

[Aishi]

Hi and sorry you got missed

Can u post your current easy as it is rather than what you're aimin for? As EAS format so we can see what needs tweaking.

I suggest you stick to one method of st either pupd or ssh pat so not to confuse lo. I would personally use ssh pat as it is gentler and pupd is really a last resort. I know you've tried ssh pat but there are variations you can use if you're lo doesn't like ssh pat eg pat without shushing, or ssh with hand on back if lo doesn't like patting etc

[cronbace]

Hi Aishi,

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it.

The current EASY is actually as I posted it, but he does not sleep in the S time! But to be clear, here goes:

E 7am
A Up from 7 - 9am
S 9 - 11 (In his cot at this time, not sleeping, see more below)

E 11am
A Up from 11-1
S 1-3 (as above, not actually sleeping)

E 3pm
A Up 3-5
S Catnap at 5:00 - 5:45
A Up 5:45 to 6:45

S Off to bed for the night at 6:45 / 7:00

More info on S time:
From 9-1 and 1-3 he is in his cot, but generally not sleeping. We have had every problem, but the current situation is going to the cot, either being quiet in there, or starting with mantra crying. This usually escalates and we try PUPD to try to get him some sleep. Over the two hour period, he may sleep for about 10 or 20 minutes, or not at all.
For the catnap I take him out for a walk in the sling, as an emergency measure, as if he doesn't get the catnap he may well have been awake for hours on end and will not be able to get to sleep in the evening, due to being overtired.

We don't actually change methods. We used ssh pat from his birth until he was three months old, only moving on to PUPD when he had reached a suitable age. PUPD certainly was a last resort, at no stage during the first three months did ssh pat work for him. However, what do you do when the last resort does not work either? !?

We also have an older daughter (now 2 and a half), who was also a very tricky sleeper, but using BW methods we got her sorted and into good habits by about 3 months old. However, this little guy is an impossible nut to crack.

[Papaya]

How is he sleeping at night atm hun? Is he still generally sttn from 7-7 with DF?

Are there any signs of discomfort that could be preventing him from settling? Reflux? Has he ever done longer naps?

I'm wondering if he's in an UT/OT loop - UT for the first nap of the day and won't settle, but quickly becomes OT because of very short naps. My first step would be to push your first A time out by 15 mins - hold for 3-4 days and if naps are still short, increase by another 10/15 mins. The average for this age is 2 - 2hr15, so he's right on the lower edge of that now. Plenty of LOs are needing a bit more, especially after a solid night's sleep. At this age, tired signs can often be unreliable - so you have to push through them gently by distracting LO with some low-key activity to get them to stay awake just a little longer!

BUT, importantly, if you do get short naps (or no nap!), you can't expect him to stay up until the next 'scheduled' nap time. At this age it's generally better to go by A times than nap times, if that makes sense - and most LOs would struggle to do a full A after a short nap. So if you get, say, a 45 min nap, I would try to resettle for about 15-20 mins. If it hasn't worked by then, chances are it's not going to - so I would get LO up and keep the next A time really low key, and a little shorter than a full A. Perhaps 1hr50 - 2 hours. Then try for another nap. You might have to be a little flexible with feeds - so it'll be more like EASAEAS, and if a feed comes just before he needs the next nap, just do a very short A (eg, nappy change) in between.

Is he spirited by any chance? PU/PD is often a bit too stimulating for spirited LOs. I've never used it with my LO, so don't have any experience with it I'm afraid.

xx

[cronbace]

Hi Papaya,

Many, many thanks for your post. Appreciate it a lot!

Yes, STTN, since he was 6 wks old. DF at 10:30 or 11 at the latest.

I don't think there is any discomfort, no reflux. He is utterly happy when he is up, until he starts to get tired. He occasionally did 1.5 hour naps, sometimes one per day in the earlier months, never consistently.

We considered that he might be UT for Nap 1, tried extending the first A time, but he got very overtired. We tried this over a number of days. (I am very tuned to his signals due to struggling with this sleep conundrum since he was born!). He gets tired, possibly because he never stops moving when he is up.

We always respond to a poor (or no) first nap by shortening the second A time (sorry, I didn't post the details of this as it would have been a very long post). So sometimes he will be up from Nap 1 (or No Nap) and be back in bed very soon afterwards. I do stick with the 4 hour feeding schedule though, because if the feeds are brought too close together (in response to poor naps) he doesn't feed well. Of course there is some flexibility here, perhaps, feeding 30 mins early on the very tricky days.

His temperament is that he is very calm, content, placid, but has major difficulty switching off to sleep. Sometimes, he will even be in his cot, chatting, but not get to sleep. That sounds like being UT, however, he then displays signs of tiredness for the rest of the day and even if we try to catch a window for the second nap, no luck. PUPD may be too stimulating for him, but I have no idea what else to try at this stage.

We may try extending the A time again, a lot can change in a week or so with these LOs!

There is a lot of info here, so in summary: he has self settling abilities, as he sleeps well during the night (mostly!), he is just chronic for naps during the day, but he needs them, when we don't battle to get him some sleep he is unhappy, irritable, etc etc. Sh-pat, PUPD, tweaking the schedule - nothing has worked to get him to nap consistently. Maybe someone has tried something crazy and it worked?? All suggestions welcome!

It is great to get your replies, as it is making us think / re-think everything and fresh eyes might be the key here.

Many thanks.

[Aishi]

Hi

He may be really high a needs which is why he's not settling at naps? My lo had huge a time increases from 5month onwards as she was ready to drop CN. Prior to this she would only do 37min naps for pm nap time

Your a time is 2h which like papaya said is on low end of this age. Have you tried increasing to 2h15 and holding for 4-5 days to see if naps improve? You need to be consistent with the new a time to give lo time to adjust... Los tired signs at this age can also be bored cues so if you give a change of scenery and keep extra a time low...he may surprise you.

Re radical suggestions if you haven't had a proper push of a time then I would suggest trying 2h20-25min a time. You're not getting good naps anyway so you have nothing to lose and if its really an OT nap then you'll know how hard you can push a time. and with it being an OT nap u should be able to extend it fairly easily.... Wdyt??!

[cronbace]

Hi Aishi,

Thanks again for your help.

I think this is a very good plan. I will extend the A time gradually and hold it and see how this goes. Hopefully in about a week or so, I'll be posting back here with some great results - fingers crossed!

Thanks and I'll be in touch again.

[Aishi]

Goo luck hon xx

[cronbace]

Hi there,

Just a quick reply, I mentioned I would respond after trying to extend A time. Well, we extended A time by 15 minutes, to a total of 2 hours 15 and have held it at this level for over two weeks - no success. Our situation is that our little guy will sometimes do 1 nap, never really 2 in a day and it is just survival here... quality of life does not exist. But I did want to thank Aishi and Papaya for their suggestions. Some babies are maybe just too tricky even for a baby whisperer routine to solve! As every week passes he will need less sleep in the day and this nightmare will eventually end.
But thanks for the support.

[Aishi]

Hon don't give up! We're still here to hold your hand post your easy and well hae another look.

I rem mentioning trying for higher a times than 2h15s a a radical step...did u try? How old is ur lo now? Does he self settle? And how long are naps?

Hugs hon xx

[Papaya]

Just checking in to this thread now, more hugs. How are things now?