Not sure when to start bedtime for 5-month old

[Erindalian]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the BW forum and am hoping to get your help. I have a baby with a slew of sleep issues that started from birth but what I wanted to get advice on most is when his bedtime should be. The problem is that it always take my DS 2 hours or more to fall asleep at night. But I notice that 11:30pm seems to be the magic number because it doesn't matter when we start his bedtime, he will almost always falls into deep sleep at that time. LO's bedtime is usually around 9 or 9:30pm and I have in the past gradually changed it to 8pm. Occasionally we put him to bed a bit later and notice that the closer we are to the 11:30pm magic number the easier and quicker it is for him to go down without a fight. However, I don't want him to develop a late bedtime habit but until he is successfully sleep trained, the 7pm bedtime will not work for us.

Below is some basic info on my DS:

How old is your child? 5 MONTHS

What’s his/her daily routine? USE EASY WITH A 2-3 HOUR INTERVAL

What’s nap routine? DIAPER CHANGE, LIGHTS OFF & GOODNIGHT KISS & CUDDLES

How long are naps? 3 NAPS, 45 MIN to 90 MIN EACH

What's bedtime routine? BATH EON OR FACE, HANDS & BUM WASHING,  PJ THEN NURSING AND 10-15 MIN OF QUIET CUDDLING Time? 9:30PM

Do you bottle or breastfed?? BFE

How much? or how long? 10-20 MIN

If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed) USUALLY ONE (BABY TENDS TO BE FULL AFTER DRAINING ONE SIDE & WILL REFUSE THE OTHER SIDE)

How many wakes per night? 3-4

What’s your LO like when waking at night? KICKS AND WHIMPERS How long is he/she up? LESS THAN 10 MIN, USUALLY A FEW MIN UNTIL HE'S NURSED OR ROCKED BACK TO SLEEP.

When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry? ALL OF THE ABOVE

What have you tried to settle? SHUSH & PAT, HOLDING, ROCKING, DIAPER CHECK/CHANGE THEN NURSING IF NOTHING WORKS

What do you do for A time and how long is it? VARIETY OF THINGS LIKE JUMPER/EXERSAUCER, TOYS, READING, MASSAGE, SINGING, EXPLORING ON THE FLOOR/TUMMY TIME & A BIT OF TV

Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones? NO

Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months) NO (planning to do it at 6-month mark per pediatrician's recommendation)

Do they have a prop? If so what is it? NURSE AND/OR ROCK TO SLEEP

Do they have a lovie?  NO (trying to establish one)


Thanks very much in advance for your help!

[anna*]

I know you say that until you've sleep trained, an early bedtime won't work BUT if he's really overtired, the only thing that WILL work is a super early bedtime. What time does he start his day in the morning?

The thing with EASY is, it's hard to tackle one thing at a time because everything is inter-related, you know? So it's really hard to sleep train a baby who is chronically overtired, so to an extent you need to look at the whole picture.

What does a typical day look like for him?

[Erindalian]

Thanks, Anna, for your prompt response. Here's my DS's schedule:

E 8
A 8:30
S 10 (45 min to 1 hour nap)

E 11
A 11:30
S 1 (1-1.5 hr nap)

E 2:30
A 3
S 4 (1-1.5 hr nap)

E 7 (cluster feeds at 7, 8 & 9)
A 7:30
S 9

Dream feed: 11pm

My baby is extremely difficult to settle at night and I have to stay with him until he's deep asleep. With dinner, and his bath time and mine it is just extremely hard to stay with him from 7pm to midnight every night.

DS's pediatrician and naturopath both seems to suggest that he doesn't need much sleep and that a late bedtime is fine but I'm just not convinced.

[anna*]

I think he probably needs a bit more awake time in the day. You could try for soMEThing like

A: 7am
S: 9.15am nap 1.5hrs
A: 10.45am
S: 1pm nap 1.5hrs
A: 2.30pm
S: 4.45pm catnap 30 mins
A: 5.15pm
S: 7pm

So then the next question is how to teach him independent sleep. I would start by stopping nursing to sleep entirely. Even at bedtime you can have him awake when you put him in the crib - just put his sleeping bag on after his last feed. Have you read up on shush-pat and pick up put down (PUPD)? You need to get him falling asleep in his crib, not in your arms.

[Erindalian]

I will definitely give this suggested schedule a try! But there is one thing, when my DS first wakes in the morning, he usually fall back to sleep within 30-45 minutes. It seems like he wakes to have his diaper changed but wants to go back to sleep right after, which makes his true wake up time to be around 9-10am. Should I encourage him to stay awake longer in order to fit the EASY schedule?

And yes, I've read a lot on the shush & pat and PU/PD as well other sleep guidance books such as Dr. Sear's. We tried sleep training our baby when he was 3-month old using PU/PD but he got a cold soon after so we decided to stop and wait until the next optimal period.  I've been slowly trying to get him to sleep without relying on nursing or rocking but he just fusses and cries for hours. I'm hoping a week or two of sleep training will address this issue and hopefully get him to finally sleep in his crib.

Thanks Anna!

[anna*]

You can do a 9-10am wake up, but then you'll be doing a 9-10pm bedtime, too! It's very common for babies to want the first A of the day to be the shortest, but even so at this age I'd expect that first A to be at least 1hr-15 mins or so.

Nursing to sleep is a tough prop to break but it can totally be done and probably easier to do it now than when he is older.

[Erindalian]

Thanks for the encouragement...I really needed it as my family and friends have been suggesting that I quit bf or supplement with formula & rice cereal to help my baby sleep better and longer. I refuse to believe that though and I'm committed to bf as long as possible.

Thanks again; I'll keep you posted!