Me again....so tired......any help gratefully recieved!

[Claireclarence]

Hi,

I've posted on here before in a couple of places and tried hard to implement the advice that I've received but we've had another set back and every so often it just gets me down   . I'm so tired I find myself getting worked up when my LO won't sleep and I know that won't solve anything.

Long and short of it is that My lovely little girl was a great sleeper until 3 months then it all went wrong. Shes now 11 months and I still haven't managed a night where she even just wakes once. On average its about 4 or 5 times but we have been through phases when its been up to 12 times a night.

A couple of weeks ago I though we were making progress. The daytime routine seemed to have fallen into place nicely and she was settling herself for bedtimes. Then last week she was ill with a vomiting thing and off course I slept in her room and cuddled her lots. Now shes become ultra clingy and won't settle herself. Last night she woke about 8 times.

We've hit some developmental milestones lately so she tends to sit up in her cot when you put her in no matter how sleepy she is! That was O.K. till she was ill as we had managed to get to the stage where I could say goodnight to her and walk out - even if she did sit up she was lying back down and going to sleep on her own. Now shes back to sitting up and crying when I leave. When I come back in shes fine but tries to play with me. I've tried sitting in the room with my back to her using my voice to calm her but she just wants to get to me and ends up getting upset. Now if I go over to the cot to lay her down she throws herself down in a mock pounce and thinks its a game! In the end we both get OT and I end up picking her up and rocking and singing to her until shes basically asleep. I tell myself that she's going down awake but really she's gone too far to turn back and if I try to do it when shes slightly more awake we end up in the same cycle.

Our EASY is all over the place. She's been transitioning between 2-1 naps and I've been struggling with the days. I find the perfect day that we aspire to is:

WU and BF 6-6:30
E (solids) 7-7:30
A
S 9:30-10 (anytime between this for about 45 minutes, I've been waking her up so that I can fit a longer nap in the pm. If I left her she would go for about an hour)
E - Snack 10:30
A
E - Lunch 12:00
A
S 1:30-2:00 for about 1.5-2hours
E - Snack 3:30/4:00
A
E - Dinner 5:00
A
S - 7:00 after BF and bedtime routine.

In reality this rarely happens and the last week has been awful with her waking after an hour in the afternoon and I think she's OT by bedtime as its been taking over an hour to get her to sleep and then she's been waking an hour later (and then I know I'm in for a bad night!)

Today she woke up early from her morning nap at about 09:50 and then I was in the car trying to get home for her lunch when she fell asleep - I've transferred her to her cot when I got home and she woke 45 minutes later. As I new she would be really tired I rocked her back to sleep. So she's missed her lunch and we're going to have a long stretch till bedtime!

I just don't know what to do anymore, everything I question. I've lost faith in myself because I think I'm too tired to judge things properly.

My little girl is so spirited its unreal. She loves sitting and reading books before bed but as soon as they close she starts to cry as she knows its bedtime!

Any ideas? Thanks in advance for your help 

[Claireclarence]

I forgot to say that I am so fed up with people telling me that I have to leave my baby to cry. Today has been simply awful and then a close friend came over and I was thinking great someone to talk to and she's just said that if it was her she would leave her to cry and that there nothing wrong with it and we ended up having a bit of a heated discussion. At that point I tried to end the conversation by saying oh, well I'm sure she'll get better and she said that it might but it might not!

Talk about kicking me when I'm down!

LO has woken every hour since putting her to bed tonight so I think overtired but she's also teething. I can't leave her when she could be in pain. I don't know how people do it. 

[anna*]

Is she medicated for the teething pain?

The 2-1 is hard work for sure. Remember that you can (and should!) resort to an early bedtime if naps go wrong in the daytime.

What happens when she wakes in the night? How quickly do you go in? How do you settle her back to sleep in the middle of the night? How long does it take? Does she go to sleep properly independently at nap time? How about at bedtime?

My little girl is spirited too and she actually does better if I don't go in and out. I stay out of the room as much as possible, I say our 'sleep phrase' through the door so that she knows I'm nearby. I do go in if I feel she really needs me but in fact she goes to sleep easier if I don't intervene too much.

[Claireclarence]

Hello,

Yes, a bad night after all of that. She woke every hour till about midnight and then 2:30, 4:30 and finally 6:30. We gave her calpal for the teething but she seemed to be in pain still, and I resorted to BF her quite a bit.

I did try and get her to bed earlier but it all went a bit wrong with meal times and in the end it was only slightly earlier then usual - I should have really tried for much earlier as I guess it probably might have stopped her waking every hour.

So, when she wakes at night at the moment she often sits up in her cot and starts crying. Its kind of a growling cry (hard to explain) is this whats called a mantra cry? Anyway - often I'm so tired I have no idea how long she's been crying for as I think I hear it in my sleep for a while before waking up properly and realising whats going on! I go in and try and settle her in the cot. Sometimes she'll just lie down and I'll rub her back and shhh and sing her bedtime song to her, other times she's inconsolable and I end up picking her up and cuddling her and rocking her singing till she calms down and gets sleepy again before putting her down and staying with my hand on her back till shes asleep and then theres the times when I can't calm her down that was at all and I end up BF her.

Sometimes it take a couple of minutes to settle her and other times its been over an hour

I think I find it hard to tell whether she's just grumbling or really working herself up - I think she's learnt to make such an awful noise that I tend to go in to her all the time and I'm wondering if I need to differentiate a bit more between a real cry and this other one she does. I've tried in the past but I think she often does the grumbling thing and then starts working herself up to a proper cry.

So we have regressed at nap time. I had managed to get her to a point where she would totally settle herself but now I tend to cuddle her for a while singing until she gets sleepy before putting her down and the last few days this has been even more hands on. The thing is that she doesn't actually get sleepy. I know she's tired but really the first you know about it is when she starts to get grumpy. So I've always had to guess when to put her down - watching for sleepy signs with her is virtually impossible.

I have tried to stand at the door out of sight and say the sleepy phrase but she still gets worked up - maybe I give up to easily?

Thank you

[anna*]

Thing is, with an 11 month old you're not going to change the way things are without a load of tears. There will be a lot of crying. You should expect it to take over an hour to settle her.

So the first thing is, don't go in to her if she's grumbling or growling. Don't go in if she's stopping for a few moments here and there. Only go in if she is properly and constantly crying an 'I NEED YOU MUMMY!" cry. Stay in bed and listen.

I would really really try not to pick her up. As you have already found, with a baby this age we pick them up, and then they are totally outraged when we put them back in the cot. Easier not to pick up at all. Don't rub her back for more than a minute, don't do it all the way to sleep, just sit next to her cot - or wherever in the room - or lie on the floor and tell her over and over in a calm, bored voice, to lie down it's sleep time (or whatever is your sleep phrase).

For my little girl Nurofen works much better than Calpol. Give it before bed and you will at least know that any wakings for the next six hours are not pain related.

Decide BEFORE you go in to her if you are going to feed her or not. Don't sit with her for 40 mins and then breastfeed - that's not teaching her anything. How many times do you usually BF her overnight? At this age I think you could still reasonably BF her once, but EITHER settle her all the way to sleep without feeding her, no matter how long it takes, OR go in, feed her, and put her back in her cot without trying to settle her first.

With naps, you could do set nap times if her tired signs are unreliable. It's important to put her in her cot awake, NOT sleepy. She needs to do the work of getting relaxed, getting drowsy, going to sleep, all by herself. Put her in the cot and leave the room, go back if she REALLY needs you, lie on the floor, pat her mattress, SHOW her what you need her to do, show her what going to sleep looks like when you do it. We need to get a bit hands off here.

[Claireclarence]

Thank you!

I've been finding it hard to know what to do with the grumbling/crying thing and got myself into such a muddle (I'm in an OT cycle!). I'll start this afternoon for her nap. And make sure she goes into her cot awake and settles herself properly.

I guess, like you say, as shes 11 months, its going to be hard to change the habits and I need to just bite the bullet and understand that its going to be hard work for a bit.

A few months ago I was feeding her all the time, and in actual fact we have come a long way from the time that I used to feed her to sleep. Now I try and limit it to a feed around 11pm is (sometimes earlier sometimes later) and then one other time in the middle of the night say 3 (give or take depending on last feed). She still having feeds morning, lunchtime, dinner and before bed during the day. When I asked the HV about it she said that if she's still taking a decent amount then she obviously needs it and not to cut it out. I keep saying to myself that once the sleep gets a bit better I'll start weaning her off the night feeds but never seem to get to that point. And as she was ill last week the NF's have been a bit more frequent then the norm.

But then there is a niggle at the back of my mind that says if she wasnt used to getting fed at night maybe she wouldnt wake up so much?!

To be honest - sometimes I don't realise what I'm doing its almost in my sleep on auto pilot.

Thank you so much for the advice I just needed someone with experience and understanding to help.  I'll try out this new strategy and try and remain consistent.

One thing is that I have always put her to bed I have never let my husband do it as I'm scared that she won't settle as well and nights will be worse. Have I got this soooo wrong? I'm exhausted and feel that I have taken so much o myself when I could get help from others. I find it hard to let go and someone else take over. 

[anna*]

(((hugs))). I know. It can just feel totally all-consuming, and it's so hard to get any kind of perspective when you're so tired.

Your HV is right. WHO recommends we feed on demand day and night until two years old. BUT I do think that the night time part is not realistic or practical for some families. Two feeds at night is absolutely fine if you are happy with that. She could probably manage on one feed overnight, when you are ready. FWIW, my daughter is 15 months and since about 11 months we've done one night feed at about 4-5am.

But then there is a niggle at the back of my mind that says if she wasnt used to getting fed at night maybe she wouldnt wake up so much?!

Definitely. There is definitely a chicken and egg thing here. In that sense it is definitely easier - as in, you will see faster results - to go cold turkey on night feeds, because then there is no confusion in her mind: "I do not nurse at night". If you sometimes feed her but sometimes don't, when she wakes she has no idea if you are going to feed her or not. So she may be expecting to nurse, and then upset when you say 'actually no it isn't time.'

One thing is that I have always put her to bed I have never let my husband do it as I'm scared that she won't settle as well and nights will be worse. Have I got this soooo wrong? I'm exhausted and feel that I have taken so much o myself when I could get help from others. I find it hard to let go and someone else take over. 

This is the ideal time to get him involved. You NEED to know that other people can put her down. Honestly hun, she's not settling well for you right now so how much worse can it be for daddy? Can you plan an evening out? Even just a meal locally with another mummy friend? It will definitely be easier for you if you are OUT of the house, and then you have to just TRUST HIM (he is her daddy, he loves her, he will not let her get so distressed beyond what he things is 'reasonable') that he will cope and he will call you if anything is wrong. You may even find she settles easier for him because she knows he can't feed her!

[Claireclarence]

Yes, I think I need to allow others to do their bit as its wearing me down and I find I'm getting so frustrated which she can probably sense.

I just put her down for her nap. Did the usual nap routine. She was OT because she was at the Childminder this morning and didn't have a sleep! So she was on the edge anyway. I walked out the leave her to settle herself and 2 minutes later she started grumbling. I went in to tell her its sleepy time and to lie down which she did and walked out again. This a couple of times and then she started to get really upset. So I lay on the floor by the cot and without any eye contact kept telling her to lie down, go to sleep, its sleepy time. She kept laying down but getting up again and then her grumbles turned into full blown tears. So I got up and told her to lie down. She was so tired eventually she did and was crying so much it was catching her breath. she finally settled I sat there with my hand on her back (not rubbing) until her breathing slowed down and then walked out.

It took 45 minutes.

Have I done the right thing? I manged not to pick her up but ended up leaning into the cot. Do you think if we continue to do this she will eventually get better and better at settling herself?

If she wakes up early from this nap I was wondering what I would do? The same? I guess to pick her up would now be a step back?

Sorry for all the questions

[anna*]

That's great! 45 mins is honestly not that long to settle her for a nap in a 'new' way when she is overtired. YES she will get better at it.

I wouldn't even go in if she's 'grumbling', only if she's really upset. Yes it may be that she 'always' goes from grumbling to crying BUT you still have to give her the chance to go from grumbling to settling herself.

If she wakes early from this nap I would leave her for as long as she is happy or just grumbling, if she doesn't go back to sleep then I'd do an early bedtime.

[Claireclarence]

Thank you!!!

She woke after 1.5 hours which is much better then the 45 minutes she's been doing lately! I'm going to stay strong and put the same into practice at BT. She's been fussy this afternoon and I think she is teething so I'll try the baby nurofen and see if that works better.

For the NW tonight I'll restrict the feeds to 2 for now - do you think thats ok? or do you think I should drop it down to one? And I'll try settling her in her cot with no picking up. This will probably be the hardest thing as when you are so tired you'd do anything to get back to bed asap!

Thank you again for all your help. Its given me such a boost. I was feeling quite awful about the whole thing but now motivated and ready to sort it out. 

[anna*]

You are totally welcome. We have ALL been there. Nothing like crazy sleep to make mama crazy.

That's a pretty good nap. I think two feeds at night is fine for now, you can look at dropping one of them in a few nights or a week or so, when you have a sense of how she's progressing. Just remember: decide BEFORE you go in to her if you are going to settle, or feed. If you're going to settle her, you're in for the long haul (although of course obvs we hope it won't be that long!). Yeh it's so hard. Sitting in a cold dark room in your nightie and you know that a quick boob feed and you'll be straight back to bed! Ugh! Hold strong. Soon you will BOTH be getting the sleep you need and DESERVE.