won't breastfeed during evening

[A_Z]

Hi all.  This is my first post here.  We're just starting to shift our daughter onto an EASY routine, since we think she'd really benefit from the structure.  It's already starting to help with naps, but I'm stuck on one big problem. 

Over the past week or so my daughter (11.5 weeks, 2 weeks early) has largely refused to breastfeed during the evening, usually from around 5 or 6 until 9 or 10.  This is especially bad because she often naps until 5 or 6, so she's really going for quite a while without a full feed.  She'll usually eat just enough to take the edge off, and then enters into a cycle of being very tired, but too hungry to fall asleep.  Then she's overtired, so she really won't eat.  If I offer her the breast she'll yell or cry, latch briefly, bob back off, rinse, repeat. 

She nurses fine the rest of the day and at night.  It's just these evening hours.  Last night we gave her a bottle of EBM and she took an extra few oz that way, enough so that she'd fall asleep.  Unfortunately, she was going to bed on a largely empty belly, so she was only asleep for about 4.5 hours (she's gone 7 or 8 before, but 6 is more common), and after her first big sleep she usually switches back to only 1-3 hour sleeps (I'm trying to encourage her to take a full feed when she wakes up at night, but that's a different issue).

Any ideas?  Thanks!

[Erin M]

Hi, welcome! 

What does her daytime routine look like, with her napping and eating times?  Do you think that your let down is any different at that time of day -- can you think of anything else that changed in the past week that would make her fussier at that time?  Babies definitely have preferences about flow, time of day, positioning, etc but I'm trying to figure out why it would have just happened now. 

Does she fall asleep eating at 5 or 6 or does she just seem very tired?

[A_Z]

Thanks for the response and the welcome!

Her schedule is still all over the map.  She is a TERRIBLE napper, and in general is difficult to get down to sleep, which is the main reason we're switching over to EASY.  I can't give you a precise schedule, because it's such a work in progress.  If left to her own devices she'd stay awake all afternoon and then have a complete meltdown every evening (ask me how I know ).  So there have definitely been some big changes recently. 

As background, from 3-7 weeks she had colic or a mild dairy allergy (not sure which), so we just did whatever worked.  Unfortunately, she lost a lot of her abilities to self-soothe during this period.  Then she settled into a routine, if you can call it that, of being happy throughout most of the day, but getting severely overtired during the evening before finally conking out between 9:30 and 10:00, at which point she'd sleep until about 3 or 4, eat, and go back down until about 7 or 8.  Then she went through what we think may have been a Wonder Week where we saw a major uptick in fussiness, she started waking more, refusing naps completely, etc.  It's just in the past several days as that fussiness has died down that we've been trying to introduce EASY.

In terms of specific changes, there've been a number.  We've started putting a strict limit on her awake time, which has helped hugely with getting her a morning nap, and has helped somewhat with an early afternoon nap, though we're still struggling with the later naps.  We've also been trying to move her bedtime earlier, which I think will help in the long run, but is currently ruining my sleep.  I've been encouraging full feeds, especially during night wakings.  I also went back to work part time a few weeks ago.

This seems to be a new manifestation of her regular evening fussiness, but it used to be that nursing was one of the few things that would calm her down.  She's also started to reject nursing in the side lying position, except during night wakings.  I don't know if that could be connected.  She does not fall asleep eating at 5-6.  The nursing just seems to make her more agitated, actually.

[A_Z]

Also, fwiw, she seems to be a combo textbook and touchy baby.  She's hitting all her milestones, is generally cheerful, eats well, etc.  But anything to do with sleep is a disaster, and she is still pretty difficult during the witching hour.

[A_Z]

Here's a thought: is it possible that she has reflux that only bothers her in the evening?  She's just started making gurgling noises in the past few days.  I'd assumed it was developmental (a new vocalization), but could that be a sign of reflux?

She ate a bit more tonight, but it ended the same way, with her yelling when I offered the breast.  Again, she took about 2 oz from a bottle, but then got angry about that also.  Now she's crying and gurgling up a storm.

[Erin M]

Yes, it very well could be reflux -- I had thought that earlier when I glanced at your reply, but not had a chance to post.  Have you seen this? Reflux 101 - General reflux information -- it has lots of info on reflux.  The reflux forum (Colic, Reflux, & Crying) is a great resource for any reflux concerns/questions.  I also know you mentioned a possible dairy allergy -- food intolerances/allergies can mimic reflux sometimes as well. 

And, another thought -- my dd1 and my ds were absolutely miserable during that time of the day until about the 3/4 month mark -- ds especially was pretty much inconsolable in the evenings until he just magically seemed to outgrow it. 

[Fiver]

Had also pondered reflux.
Also, at 12w, it isn't unusual for LOs to sleep in shorter blocks at night. 7-8 hour nights generally come a bit later. 12w is also in growth spurt territory when routine often flies out of the window.
Just a couple of things to consider alongside everything else

[A_Z]

Thank you both for your replies!

I got in touch with the LC I'd seen a while ago, and she said it would be rare for reflux to suddenly show up at 11 weeks.  Thoughts?  I do think it's possible that this is all the product of it being her fussy time, so hopefully it'll pass.

Either way, something unexpected happened last night.  My husband got her down around 8, which has become her new bedtime, after she'd been refusing to eat for a few hours.  At around 9 she woke up and started crying, so I went in, picked her up, and nursed her.  She ended up eating for about ten minutes, which probably came out to a few ounces, but was asleep for about half of it.  I try not to let her nurse to sleep these days, but I decided to treat it like a self-imposed dream feed.  She ended up sleeping for 7.5 hours after that!  One of her longest stretches.

Tonight we had a bit of a hiccup because we had her in her carrier coming home from dinner around 7, and that always knocks her out.  We got home just before 8 and she woke up totally cheerful and absolutely chowed down.  Then, however, she didn't want to go to bed.  I tried offering her more to eat after an hour or two had gone by, but she refused.  My husband finally got her down at 10:30.  She woke up after 15 minutes, so I did the same thing.  Went in, let her nurse half asleep, and then plonked her back down in her crib.   

So I'm not sure what to make of all this.  The LC encouraged me to let her decide when and how much to eat at these times.  I'm just crossing my fingers that the accidental dream feed works again and I can get some solid sleep.

[Fiver]

Sometimes you just need to do what you need to do and not fret about the routine.
FWIW, DS's reflux didn't really start to manifest until around 8w (as I recall), so it's not completely impossible

[A_Z]

You're right, I think I just need to go with the flow sometimes.  She ended up sleeping for nearly eight hours last night!

Tonight she started doing her hungry-but-won't-eat routine, so I didn't push it and we just worked on getting her down to bed.  She woke up again after half an hour and I nursed her for a while before she went down again.  She just woke up a bit again so my husband is resettling her, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed for another good night.  Wish me luck!

Thanks Erin and Fiver for your help!

[Erin M]

You're welcome. 

And FWIW, my ds nursed to sleep pretty much every night for nearly 16 months and it never messed with our nights.  With some babies, it definitely does, but I've heard from quite a few moms on here where it's not a problem.  Just something to keep in mind. 

[A_Z]

I just wanted to give a quick update on this thread and let you know how it's going.   

I don't think reflux is the issue.  The refusal to eat in the evening seems to be connected with her being overtired.  I was confused, because she'd do it even if she'd just had a nap, but I think that by bedtime she's just overtired no matter what (she's an awful napper).  Also, she's learned that her evening routine is bath, sleep sack, nurse, and then bed, so I think she gets upset when I try to feed her because she knows bedtime was coming.  This baby hates going to sleep. 

The unintentional dreamfeed became a pattern for a couple of weeks.  I would feed her as much as I could, we'd get her to sleep, and then she'd usually wake up within an hour, at which point she'd eat very efficiently for about 15 minutes and go straight back to sleep.  On the nights that she did this she'd average 7-8 hours until her first MOTN feed, which was pretty great. 

We seem to have a new pattern now, though.  We still have to rock her to sleep most nights, unfortunately, because she gets really worked up with SP or PUPD.  A few nights ago, though, I just couldn't deal with the rocking anymore and she was being incredibly fussy, so I just put her down in her crib and stayed with her.  I just needed to take a break.  She fussed for a while, and eventually I picked her up and tried to nurse her again.  She nursed very well, conked out nursing, and then slept 10.5 hours!  So last night I let her fuss again with me in the room with her.  I gave her ten minutes, she nursed well, and slept for 9.5 hours!

We did the same thing tonight, only she woke up after she was done eating, so I put her down wide awake.  She put herself to sleep!!!  Of course, she woke up five minutes later and had to be nursed back down, but still!  This is the first time she's put herself to sleep at bedtime since before she went through her colic phase.  I'm thrilled.  I don't mind nursing her to sleep at night, but I can't do it while I'm at work, so if she can get to sleep on her own it would be amazing.

It seems like she might be one of those babies that just really needs to fuss/cry a little to wind down to sleep.  Maybe all the bouncing and rocking is part of the problem, since we're preventing her getting it out of her system.

[Erin M]

You never know.  Sometimes I found it easier with mine at that age to just put them in their beds and pat/soothe there -- and there generally was a lot of fussing, but I always was right there with them, as you are, so I just took it as teaching how to sleep -- and being able to pick them up if they ever did get super upset.  Could you also try switching up your routine to nurse earlier or would that just make her mad earlier?  Also, FWIW, my ds nursed to sleep pretty much every night until he was weaned around 16 months and it never threw off our night sleep.  Some babies are like that.