Just started sleep training. Advice needed. 8 Month old Girl. LONG early waking.

[ragingpup]

Hi,

We're having big difficulty getting DD to sleep when she wakes up in the night. We are newly sleep training to get her off independently in her own room/bed. Up to now she has slept well until 3 - 4ish and then when awake I rock her to sleep on lap and transfer to cot when asleep or if early morning wake up, my wife brings her into bed after morning milk for sleep. We now are trying to get her to sleep fully independently but have a big problem when she wakes up:

Her routine for the day goes something like this:

7am Milk
7.30 Extra sleep to get her up to 12 hours for the night (this has been usually in our bed - we are stopping this)
9    1 weetabix
11 Formula Milk and finger food
12 Nap (usually 40 mins)
1   Lunch: 4 table spoons homemade food (veg based)
3   Formula Milk and finger food
4   Nap (30-40 mins)
5   Tea (4 table spoons home made food)
7.30 210ml Formula
8pm BT

Last night (first night of indie sleep) I rocked her on lap after dinner (always with dummy and white noise when we signal sleep to her)  til sleepy and then transferred her to cot and sat by her side, light stroking of her tummy. She fussed and cried for 45 - 60 mins and then went to sleep. Quite pleased for 1st night!

She then slept through to 4am - I went through as soon as I heard her fussing, changed her heavy nappy, rocked her on lap until sleepy and then into cot. Then the nightmare began! She alternated between fussing, waving her dummy around, throwing dummy down, crying, pulling on her baby gro swinging her legs above her, cooing, screaming etc all the while with me keeping a gentle hand on her so she knew I was there. This went on for 3 HOURS!!! Finally back to sleep at 6.45!! She then slept for 1 more hour and then awake for the day.

I would HUGELY appreciate any advice on whether we are doing the right thing, how we can adjust/any different ideas we can try or whether we just persevere??! If we persevere, how does one withstand the demand of sitting by her for hours on end with a hand on her? Should I stay in the room but not put hand on her so I can read or do puzzles??!

Sorry for rambling post! Thanks for any thoughts!

[anna*]

Hi there, welcome to the boards

The first thing I think is that your little girl is very overtired. 7.30am-12pm is waaaay too long to go without a nap, so I would definitely look at giving her first nap at around 10.30am - that way hopefully she will nap for longer than 30-40 mins. She really needs to be having two naps of at least an hour each. That way she won't be so overtired at bedtime and she should sleep better as a result. Likewise the pm nap should be about 3hrs from when she wakes up (assuming a decent nap), so your day might go
7.30am awake
10.30-12pm nap
3-4.30pm nap
7.30pm asleep for the night

I would REALLY try not to change her nappy at night. It will wake her a lot. You can get nappies specifically for overnight use (they hold more) or go up a size. I would definitely not expect a baby to settle easily after a middle of the night nappy change (unless she has pooped of course in which case you do have to).

Yes you can stay next to the cot without touching her. If she is happy/playing, you don't need to stay in there at all - only go to her if she is genuinely crying a distressed 'I NEED YOU' cry - if she is moaning or fussing or stop-start crying, just leave her.

[ragingpup]

Hi. Thank you for the reply Anna.

I agree that our DD is not getting enough sleep - problem is she resists getting off on day time naps that whilst she'll go off quickly on our laps, as we are sleep training, it can take 2 -3 hours for her to get off in her cot and for example this morning only mapped for 25 mins! We could allow her to go to sleep quicker on laps and then transfer when in deep sleep but we want to be consistent and get her used to getting to sleep in cot. So she is losing a lot of sleep.

Last night was better though. I got her sleepy on my lap and transferred to cot where she cooed and played with her dummy etc for 45 mins or so and then started her usual pre-sleep angry shouting which lasted for about 20 mins before she went to sleep. So better than 3 hours the previous night!

Is it normal for babies to shout angrily when nearing dropping off to sleep? Is it always caused by over tiredness?

Any other pointers/observations much appreciated. Thank you 

[anna*]

So what's happening for that 2-3hrs during the nap attempt? Crying/screaming? Playing?

Yes, a lot of babies have an angry cry/shout before they go to sleep. It's the mantra cry. Listen closely, and as  long as she doesn't sound really distressed, or the cry isn't escalating - if it doesn't sound like she needs you, then leave her to it it is her way of 'getting it all out' before dropping off to sleep.

[ragingpup]

She usually cries loudly when I arrive but soon settles down when held. I then rock her until sleepy and then transfer to cot. She then wakes up and cries before settling into cooing and chatter whilst I keep hand on her. She very annoyingly keeps taking dummy out and waving it around! Thinking of taking this off her but it does seem to help her when she eventually goes to sleep. She can then keep this going mixed in with frequent bursts of low level crying which then becomes very loud and angry as she tires and eventually goes to sleep. All this lasted a couple of hours on night one but took about 1 hour the 2nd night. Last night she slept through til 6am! Maybe she woke up and got back off herself but not sure - maybe the sleep training is beginning to work?!!

Thanks for your thoughts!

[anna*]

OK for sleep training to progress, you need to put her down awake, not drowsy. Calm, but wide awake. I would stay hands-off now... only go and touch her if she is really upset. If she's cooing, or angry, or chatting, you need to not be in the room at all.

[ragingpup]

Progress! Put her down awake last evening and she was asleep within 20 mins! Has kind of slept through for 3 nights now but wakes very early - about 5.20 this morning.

Just discussing with wife what to do at this point when she wakes - she seems far to rested to go back to sleep from awake (takes a couple of hours again) so do we call it a night and start the day?! Or resume the sleep battle until she gets there?? Guess we're just worried that 7.30pm - 5.15am isn't enough sleep...

Whaddya think??

Thanks again 

[anna*]

NO! Don't start the day at 5.20am! You have to keep trying to resettle her until what you decide is a reasonable time to start the day (for me that would not be before 6.30am, especially if bedtime was 7.30pm). Could you give her some milk at that time? My daughter at that age loved to wake in the 5am hour but with a quick night feed I could roll her back into her cot and she'd go back to sleep until 7ish.