Need advice on 8 mo old -major accidental parenting

[Kaixlani]

My 8 months old son only knows to fall asleep at boob or from being rocked after nursing. He did sleep in a cradle for a couple of months when I quietly move him after passing out at the boob but since 5 months mark, he only sleeps with me, on me or next to me - even for naps which are anywhere from 30 mins to 1 hour.  He has several night wakings which he quietly falls back asleep suckling at boob. He doesn't take bottle but eats solids well. 

He's really getting mobile and it's no longer safe to sleep together in our bed (can crawl off bed) but he's never slept in his crib.  We feel it's time for him to learn to sleep on his own and plan on trying PU/PD this weekend.

Is there anything we should do to prepare him for it? Is it too many changes all at once to not have him fall asleep at boob, trying to get him to tire himself out to sleep, sleep alone in the crib, not feed him at night wakings?

Any advice would be so much appreciated. I just feel like I let him be this way and feel bad trying to take it all away!

[jessmum46]

You can certainly use PUPD for this situation, but this might be a gentler way for you to start: Gentle Removal Plan

With night feeds it may be a bit much to expect him to go from feeding frequently all night to not feeding at all.  I'd suggest you set a time e.g. 4h and don't feed him if he wakes unless it has been long than that since the last feed.  You could then gradually extend that to 5h, 6h etc.

Also have a read of this which contains the age-appropriate PUPD information: How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

What do you think?

[Kaixlani]

Thank you for your suggestion. I will try the 4h, 5h, etc for the night feedings.

I'm so sad that he will not be able to sleep with me anymore but I know I'm giving him a skill, as Tracy said.

I do have some questions if anyone can tell me if I'm understanding the technique right; I'm going to nurse him at night, when he's falling asleep but still awake we put him in the crib. He's going to cry - so we will be using age appropriate (8mo) PU/PD until he passes out - Probably hours! So when (not if) he wakes up we retry the PU/PD again right? Even if its 4-5 times he wakes up?

For naps, we do the PU/PD and if he doesn't sleep at all into almost next eating time, we just feed him and retry at next nap time, even though he's been up for 4-5 hrs??

So nervous about it!! Thanks ahead of time for anyone's help.

[jessmum46]

Yes overnight you would use PUPD for each night waking.  However, make sure you decide before you go to him whether this is a 'feed' (ie 4h+) or 'not feed' waking.  If you are feeding, do it straight away and put him back in bed (ok if he falls asleep feeding for middle of the night feeds), but if it is a 'not feed' waking you use PUPD and see it all the way through to him falling asleep, even if it takes you past the 4h cutoff.  That way he doesn't learn that protesting long enough gets him a feed.  You can then feed him at the next waking. 

For naps, you would use PUPD for 45 mins max.  Take a short break, low key A time, feed if due and then try again for a nap earlier than you would have done.  If you keep him up until the next scheduled nap time he will be super-exhausted and not in a position to learn.  He will skip naps - that's normal when sleep training, but with consistency the OT should start to work in your favour because he will have to sleep at some point.  When trying to resettle from a short nap, I would try for 15-20 mins max and then just move on with the day, bringing the next nap earlier.  Life is too short to spend in a dark room with a screaming baby!

[Kaixlani]

I started sleeping with him in his room so that he gets used to being in there. After several days, finally tried PUPD.  I was NOT expecting him to play with his stuffed animals! I wasn't sure what to do so I left the room and came back when he started to get fussy.  Also he cried so much when I picked him up - 5mins at a time sometimes.  I wasn't expecting that either.  After 3 hours and almost 200 PUPD, I got in a huge argument with my husband, then he took the baby and in minutes he fell asleep in his arms.  This was past midnight and I had no heart to wake the baby up. My husband laid him down in his crib and to my surprise he didn't wake up.  It's past his usual night feeding time. 

I'm so confused as to what I was supposed to do when he was playing! I hate the fact that my son just cried for hours for nothing. Or could I salvage it and should I retry tomorrow night? Isn't 200 excessive? He was totally tired and tipping over left and right but showed no signs of slowing down on crying. He was relentless.

I'm writing this as he lays asleep, don't even know what to do when he wakes up!!

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))), sorry it was a tough night for you.

If he was playing you did the right thing - you don't intervene with PUPD until he is crying.  Did you read the link on age-appropriate PUPD?  At this age you only want to pick up when really necessary, hold for the least time possible, and you would put back down after a minute or so even if LO is still crying.  200 times is not excessive for just starting out - remember you are changing everything he knows about how he goes to sleep, and it will take him time to learn.  Can I just check there is no discomfort going on at the moment though e.g. teething?

All that said, it is not fair to him or to yourself if you are not ready to see it through, and you don't have to do anything you are not comfortable with.  The most important thing with sleep training is consistency, and it really helps if you and your partner are both comfortable with the method you've chosen.  You haven't ruined everything by letting him fall asleep in your partner's arms last night - please don't worry about that, you can always start again another day when you are both ready.  But (for your own sake) make sure you are both ready to carry it through when you do try again.  It WILL be difficult in the short term, but it WILL have long-term benefits for you all if independent sleep is what you want. 

Here to help whatever you decide

[Kaixlani]

We decided to keep trying - i just couldnt imagine all his crying (and mine) being wasted!!! So yesterday (first time nap training) the first nap he cried for 45 mins then we brought him downstairs for low A time as you suggested. Around noon he seemed really tired we retried and although I moved him into the crib when he was still little awake, he just went to sleep! For the first time ever he took 2 hour nap on his own in his crib. Miracle.  He did skip the second nap and at night, the same story - he was moved into crib not passed out but didn't cry at all and went to sleep.  He did wake up after 3 hours and I did decide to nurse him but he put up a fight going back to sleep in his crib. After almost 2 hours, he did eventually fell asleep. A couple more wakings but I nursed him back.  We decided we will work on getting him to sleep and fall asleep in his own crib then work on weaning off NF.

Today he also cried for the first nap, when we retried for the second time after low A & early lunch, he fell asleep in the crib for an hour. No second nap again. Tonight, I nursed him then moved him into crib, he cried and I did PUPD twice (2 not 200!!) then I did pat him on his back and he fell asleep!  I was speechless. Yes he will wake up in few hours and may put up another fight like last night but hopefully it gets easier!

Obviously we still need to work on naps - not sure if its too bright (all shutters are closed but still brighter
Than evenings) or he's UT. 

If you have any other suggestions for naps, please let me know and thank you so much for all your help, it is life changing!!

[jessmum46]

Well done - you should be very proud

Did you want to post the routine you're aiming for to see if there is anything I can suggest that might help?

[Kaixlani]

So this is what today looked like - he just went from 3 to 2 naps 2 weeks ago. He used to go to bed at 8-9pm but ever since sleep training on Friday, it's around 7;30 which I think is a good bedtime.

7;40 wake up & nursed
8;05 breakfast
8;25-10;55 errands & play
10;55 nurse & move into crib sleepy
11;10-11;40 nap (cried for 10 secs!)

12;15 lunch
12;30-2:35 bookstore, shopping & play
2;35 nurse
2;45-3;15 nap

3;30 snack
4;00-6;00 swim & play
6;10 dinner
6;30-7;00 low activity
7;00 bedtime routine
7;20 nurse
7;30 fell asleep in the crib without a fight but woke up after 30 mins, took 45 mins and PUPD back to sleep at 8;55.
 
I don't know why today he kept waking up after 30 mins for naps and bedtime. Does that mean he's OT? I was really watching out for cues and usually he's ok with 3 hours up time..

Let me know what you think!! Thanks so much again.

[jessmum46]

I think a little OT today probably.  His first A time was actually 3h30 by the time he slept which may have been a bit too much, and then he did another full 3h A time after that short nap.  Often you need to reduce the A time after a short nap - possibly to somewhere between 2-2.5h in this case.  The wakings soon after BT are a common sign of OT, so on days where naps aren't great I would try to go for an early BT.

You are doing really well though so keep at it!

[Kaixlani]

Thank you!

[Kaixlani]

Do you think it's too much for him to get him to sleep on his own in his crib at the same time trying to extend out NF?  Last few nights (day 4, 5, 6 of sleep training) he's been waking up 4-5 times. Like tonight, he went to bed at 7;20, woke up 30 mins later. Did PUPD few times and he went back to sleep. 2 hours later he wakes up again (3hours since last feed) so I nurse him. He sleeps for like 1.5 hours and up screaming for over an hour now. It's been over 3 hours since last feed now but I don't feel like I should give into feeding?

My husband thinks it's too much to teach him all at once.  Could it be growth spurt at 9 months? (9 months today) then how do you deal with the baby who wants to feed more often perhaps?

[jessmum46]

I think the issue here is that him not being an independent sleeper is bound up with his frequent night feeds, so really I do think they need to be tackled together.  There is normally a regression around day 5 of sleep training and that may be what you're experiencing.  Try to keep consistent with PUPD if you can, and I would push the night feeds to at least 4h apart.  If his naps have been short a lot of those wakings could be related to OT.  Have you ruled out discomfort as another possibility?