Author Topic: Need sleep at night! But nervous about starting EASY w/ my EBF 4.5 m.o. baby.  (Read 1525 times)

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Offline NachoMama

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First post here! First time mom desperately need more sleep... I need your help!
We want --NEED-- to:
- teach baby to fall asleep without being rocked 
- to sleep longer at night (or even through the night, would be amazing)!
- to have naps longer than 30-45 minutes

We want to get on BW's 4-hr EASY routine, as laid out in the book "BW Solves Your Problems," but how do I know...

* When is it the right time to start?... How do we know baby is ready?
* And does it work better to *gradually* "ease into it" by first stretching his periods of awake time to be longer and longer between sleep and feedings? And THEN go for the 4-hr training? OR... to just go for it full-force, with a sudden change from a 2.5/3-hr daytime routine (and on-demand nursing at night) to 4-hr EASY, including PU/PD and refusing to feed him during the night?

About my baby:
- healthy baby boy 4.5 months old, 15 lbs
- breastfed only (and occasionally pumped milk in bottles) -- no problems yet with breastfeeding except that he's hungry still during the night
- currently follow the order of E, A, S - only eats after sleep
- typically naps for 30-45 minutes, occasionally 60-75 minutes
- starts getting sleepy after 1.5-1.75 hrs, usually asleep after 2 hrs awake time (including feed time)
- wakes for feedings all throughout night, anywhere from every 1-2 hrs to 3-4 hrs.
- has been rocked to sleep for every single nap/nighttime
- is still swaddled tight for all sleeps (except when in stroller or car seat)
- uses a pacifier to fall asleep, often spits it out once asleep (but not always)... is this a "prop"?
- uses a white noise machine (Sleep Sheep) to fall asleep when at home ... is this a "prop"?

While I'm desperate for more sleep at night, I'm also concerned that going from the 11pm Dream Feed until 7am morning feed will affect my milk supply.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! This site came highly recommended from a trusted friend. Thanks in advance! :)

Offline Ima shel Alon

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Hi and welcome!
The fact that you are doing this:
currently follow the order of E, A, S - only eats after sleep
is already huge! This is a struggle for many people who start EASY, so you are already half way there :).

The first and most important thing for me to mention is that NOT feeding at night AT ALL - is probably going to effect your milk supply, but worse than that, your baby being EBF and so young still needs to feed at night. There are very few babies who drop NF in the early months. I can tell you that my LO was FF and we only managed to completely drop them when he was 6m old, after weeks of gradually reducing the bottles.
Saying that, there is also no reason for her to feed every hour or two at night. I think what is happening is that she wakes up (like we all do, but we don't notice it) but is not able to self settle back to sleep.
You mentioned that you are planning or already doing PU/PD. Tracey meant for PU/PD to be a last resort, after pat/shh hasn't worked. Your LO is older than 4m which is the age one can start PU/PD, but I found that pat/shh works much better at this age. It's much more gentle and young babies respond well to it. Do you have Trace's books? She gives there a detailed description on how to do pat/shh. If not, there is very good information here: A Special Sleep Interview with Tracy Hogg
Teaching Sleep to Babies of 3-5 months (and the 45 min nap)
What you could do for night time, to reduce the feeds and to teach him to self settle is to decide what times you are going to feed at night. For example, you can decide that you are giving a DF between 22 and 23 before you go to bed (more on that here: Cluster & Dreamfeeding FAQ's - Starting, how to do it, stopping & problems ) and then decide to feed at 1ish and 4ish. Every other NW you are settling with pat/shh and not feeding till it's time.
Now, I am not going to lie to you, you are going to have a few very rough nights. Pat/shh and PU/PD are not cry free methods. They are methods that you can teach your baby to be a more independent sleeper while you are there for him at all times and he is not left alone.

But another thing that needs to be tackled is the day time routine. It would be helpful if you can post your day in an EASY format so we can have a look at his A times and naps and see what can be tweaked.
TBH, his A times sound ok to me, not low or high for his age, so I can think of two things that might be happening. One is that he is not able to go through the sleep cycles himself. For this you can either use W2S or HTTJ (there is more about that here: How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods) ). The other thing that can happen is that he wakes up because he is hungry. I know that the book talks about 4h EASY at this age, but in fact most EBF can't manage such a long gap between feeds. It's more around 6m that they can handle that. What most mommies do is either feed in the middle of A time, so your EASY will look like this: AEASAEAS, or you offer another top up short before the nap is due. It can be 15-20min before the nap and it would be good if there is a little bit of A time before S, even a nappy change or something like that.

Are you keeping a log of his day? It would be good to his what length of A is resulting in what nap. After a few days of keeping a log you can look back at it and see if you can find any patterns. For most babies 30-35min naps are OT (so too much A) and 45min-1:20h nap are UT (so not enough A). But a pattern you can only see after a few days, if you get a 45min nap one day you can't conclude anything about it.
You should also consider OS and that he has a good WD (What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual))
is still swaddled tight for all sleeps (except when in stroller or car seat)
That's great, I would keep with that IIWY, only start weaning when he start rolling because then it's not safe anymore.
uses a white noise machine (Sleep Sheep) to fall asleep when at home ... is this a "prop"?
White noise is also great. I am not sure if it's a prop or not, I know that many mommies here use them till very late. My DS still can only sleep with his white noise :P.
Re the paci, it's not always a prop. If LO is dependent on it to fall asleep or wakes up constantly for it to be repluged then yeah, it probably is. But I wouldn't worry about it too much. In my experience (and I was also like that in the beginning) EASY is extremely difficult if things are rigid. We all have different ways of falling asleep, staying asleep and we all have different sleep needs - so do our babies. If you find that there are props or AP that works for your LO and you are HAPPY with it, then go for it.
When I tried implementing EASY with DS I did sleep training just by the book, but it didn't work. I had days and days of crying - he was crying and I was crying. The moment I realized that he there are things he likes and doesn't like WRT his sleep, we were all happier. We had all naps in the pram till DS was 5m and we were feeding to sleep :D That's what worked for him and I never looked at it as a prop because I was so happy with his long naps. When I knew he was ready and we were as well we did pat/shh and it worked after just a couple of days.
BW is not about keeping a schedule and doing things by the book, it's about recognizing your baby's needs and your family and combining them together.

So good luck! I am here if you want to post your EASY and if you have more questions :). I know this is a lot to take in and a lot of reading to do, but as someone who has been where you are right now I can tell you that it's worth it ;).
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Offline jessmum46

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Typed a big reply but was beaten to it ;) Just wanted to offer an extra (((hug))) and say you can do it!  We started at almost the same age and I was also EBF with no real routine.  The advice from Noa amongst others was fab - you're in great hands!!  Good luck xx

Offline NachoMama

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THANK YOU for your encouragement and hugs! And what a detailed and extremely helpful response... so grateful I found this forum!

I would be thrilled with 1 or even 2 solid feeds during the night, especially if they were spaced out longer than 3 hours. EBF is important to me.

Last night as an experiment I tried shushing and rocking him when he woke at 2:30 a.m. to see if he'd go back to sleep without feeding. Nope. Hunger cry escalated and he needed food.

I do have Tracy's books (not the toddler one yet though). Have only managed to flip around in them, have not read them from front to back yet. Reading has been such a struggle since having a baby! Most of what I know about BW is from friends who have explained the basics to me.

Yes we have been logging all of baby's day, with times for E, A and S, plus specifics like how long it took to rock him to sleep or how long and what type of cry, what mood, how early he starts rubbing eyes etc. I'll post an example day here soon.

So glad to know it won't ruin things if I decide to tweak EASY a bit and give him a top-up feed before naps. I will try that today and see what happens!

I will check out your links to the ssh-pat technique... I must have misunderstood it, the way my friend explained it sounded as if the baby had to be lying on his side? My baby is swaddled and lies on his back in a basket inside his crib.

I can't wait to dig into this forum more and get more tools that will help us end our accidental parenting bad habits of rocking him to sleep (which took over an hour last night) so we can teach him to fal asleep on his own and also fall back asleep if he wakes. THANK YOU!

Offline Ima shel Alon

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I will check out your links to the ssh-pat technique... I must have misunderstood it, the way my friend explained it sounded as if the baby had to be lying on his side? My baby is swaddled and lies on his back in a basket inside his crib.
I think this is what Tracey wrote in the book if I remember right. My experience was that it doesn't matter how I do shh/pat but that I am consistent with the way I do it, so every time do the same.
Tracey said to put them on the side and the shh right next to their ear. There was no way that was going to work for us, lol. With my back problems I had to have DS lying on his back and I couldn't lean to the cot so I was shhing to the room :D And it worked!

Last night as an experiment I tried shushing and rocking him when he woke at 2:30 a.m. to see if he'd go back to sleep without feeding. Nope. Hunger cry escalated and he needed food.
Is there maybe a possibility that when you start sleep training that your DH is doing the first night? Perhaps start on a weekend? Because your LO can smell your milk and is associating you with feeding, it's sometimes helpful if daddy is doing it.
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Offline NachoMama

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I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts about what we're possibly doing wrong or improvements or changes we could try. Here is a typical day/night from early last week. Our son will be 5 months on April 20... seems like we're experiencing the 4-month Sleep Regression, which makes us hesitant to start trying sleep training during this time.

Wed Apr 3: This was a good day! Even though naps were 40 minutes the night went well in that the feeds were SHORT.

(previous night's wake-up times: in bed 9:15pm, then 1:15am, 4:50am, then 9:20am)
E - 9:20-9:35
A - bouncy seat, tummy/back playtime on blanket w/ mirror and toys, lap cuddles and dances: SO HAPPY!
S - NAP 11:20-12:00 in crib (went down easy; eyes closed as soon as rocking began and quickly spat out pacifier)
E - 12:05-12:30pm
A - 12:30-1:40 Exersaucer - SO HAPPY & VOCAL! - Lots of yawns after only 1 hr awake time
S - NAP 1:40pm Dad rocked him to sleep, Slept 2:00-2:40 in crib
E - 2:40-2:50, slightly fussy, lots of farting, spit-up
A - Exersaucer - calm, quiet, content - stroller walk with Mom
S - NAP Slept 5:00-5:30pm in stroller
E - 5:50-6:50pm; nose-rubbing, eye-rubbing, fussing; 7:35-8:10 sleepy nursing
S - 8:20pm Asleep in crib (fell asleep while rocking almost instantly, no crying.
     - 9:10 Cried out; tried to just replace pacifier & shush but he kept crying. Rocked him back to sleep then back in crib.
     - later woke for feedings at 12:50 (fed 20minutes)  & 4:45 (fed 20 minutes) then 8:20 on Thurs morning.

And here are logs, from last Friday and Saturday, after taking your advice and trying EAES...

Fri Apr 5: A great day with some major milestones: shush-pat instead of rocking, and an epic long nap!

E - 7:50-8:00 distracted while nursing, lots of on/off
A - 8-8:40 played in bouncy chair w/ toys (while I pumped)
     8:40-9:10 tummy time and back time on blanket with toys, started to whine (bored?) at 9:00
     9:10-9:40 lots of physical activity in Jolly Jumper (w/ mirror) in doorway - HAPPY!
     9:40 start winding down, relaxed together on blanket, read stories
E - 9:55-10:20 in his quiet dark room - sleepy, fell asleep on boob
S - woke up a bit during diaper change (poop) & re-swaddle
   - started to rock him as usual but he was arching/grunting so I placed him in his basket in crib on side with teddy bear behind back for support, shushing while patting his back, replaced pacifier several times *FELL BACK ASLEEP WITHOUT BEING ROCKED!*
    - SLEPT 10:45 - 11:45
E - 12:00-12:15 distracted, on/off
A - 12:15-12:40 - played in Exersaucer independently
   - relaxed in swing, played w/ toys & peekaboo w. me while I ate lunch
   - started yawning & fussing at 1:00 - started wind-down, cuddled on my lap, read books
E - 1:35-1:45 then rocked to sleep
S - SLEPT 2:10-2:50; woke up crying but eyes still closed. I turned him on his side & shush-patted him for 5 minutes and he was ASLEEP again! First time this happened during a nap! Woke again at 3:20, same exact thing happened again! And it worked! Back in crib at 3:30 on his back, and he didn't wake up until 5:20!!! An epic 3 hr long nap! Total sleep time 2:10-5:20!
A - Company visited, socializing, lap cuddles, exersuacer
E - 7:40-7:50
S - 8:20 Dad started bedtime: swaddled, rocked, almost asleep by 8:40 but mild fussiness escalated into obvious mouth/teething pain - Dad gives Tylenol 8:40
E - fed bottle of breastmilk, 100 mL / 3.5 oz
S - rocked to sleep immediately after bottle, asleep & put in crib at 9:40pm
   - 11:45 - awoke crying, sweaty and un-swaddled;
    - nursed 11:45-12:45, then diaper change & re-swaddle,
    - rocked back to sleep, 12:55 back in crib
    - 4:15 - awoke crying, nursed from 4;15-4:55, back in crib 5:00 a.m.

Saturday April 6 : Challenging day & night, fussy baby, possibly because of poor timing for our afternoon outing. Makes me never want to leave the house again!

E - Awake happy @ 7:15, nursed 7:30-7:40
A - 7:40-9:05 tummy time, mirror dancing, lap cuddles
E - 5-minute nurse to "top-up" before nap
S - 9:10 - placed in crib on side & shush-patted -- NO ROCKING!!! asleep after only 2 minutes crying!
     -SLEPT 9:10-10:35
E - 10:35-10:55 - seemed to sleep thru nursing
A - played in bouncy seat while we got ready for family outing
   - Family Outing 12:00-1:30 rode in car seat & stroller at local fire station's open house
   - suddenly got fussy and started crying at 1:25 so we left
E - at home, 1:35-1:50
   - fussed & cried while Dad rocked him from 2:00-2:40
   - I came in to nurse him at 2:45 for 5 minutes, then rocked to sleep
S - Slept 2:50-5:05
E - 5:10-5:25, fussy, on/off boob, 5:40-5:50 - kept pulling off, seemed to be in mouth pain
A - 5:50-7:00 played in Exersaucer independently while I cooked dinner (happily gnawing on teething toys almost entire time)
E - Cluster feed: 7:10-7:15, 7:20-7:25, 7:45-8:00, 8:45-9:05
S - Asleep in crib - 9:15 (rocked to sleep)
   - 10:00 - Awake & screaming, Dad unable to calm him down. Mom nursed a bit to calm and comfort. Lots and lots and lots of crying. Kept rocking him. Mouth in pain since he pulled off both boob and pacifier crying. Finally gave Tyelnol and Natural Orajel at 11:15. Alseep at 11:30? Can't be sure...
    - 12:50 - awoke crying, Dad fed bottle of 160mL breastmilk, gave Infacol (gas, tummy) and Orajel - serious pain; had to make him fully awake for him to "snap out of it"- watched some TV, had Daddy cuddles on couch...happy & cuddly while upright, then crying in pain while laid back... back to dim room for rocking back to sleep...FINALLY ASLEEP @ 2:30 AM!
    - 4:20- - Awake crying, nursed from 4:20-5:10; appeared to sleep thru feeding, a bit of spit-up, 2x failed attempts to replace him in crib, woke up crying 2x, waited and rocked for another 15 minutes then successful transfer
     -Slept until 8:15am.







Offline Ima shel Alon

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Ok, so it looks like some things are working and some don't right?
First of all, it DOES seem like you see progress already with pat/shh and I suggest that if you decide you don't want to rock anymore then you use pat/shh for all sleep - naps and night time because you are going to end up confusing him and pat/shh will take ages to work if at all.
You got a very good 1.5h nap on the third EASY after an A between 7:15 and 9:10, so 1:55h A time - I'd try and stick to that as a first A for the next days to see if you get the same results.

Your A time before BT is way way too long - on both days you had 4h A time before BT which is what a 9m old would do, yk?
Anyway if he wakes up around 7 or 8 in the morning then it's better if BT is 12h later. If he woke up at 7 and went to bed at 21 that's a 14h day, it's very long. And in the end he only slept from 21:40 to 7:15 which is not enough really. Also if you out him earlier to bed, like at 19 or 20 then you don't have the problem of 4h A time before BT.

And another thing about the short night (21:40-7:15) - 3h nap is going to steal from your night sleep. I think it's great that he managed to sleep for so long, I remember how I longed for long naps and then when they came - wake him up? But yes, if you want better nights then you would need to wake him up from such a long nap. 2h would be ideal, and if you think he is very OT then I'd let him nap for 2.5h at this age but not longer than that.

WRT going out I always planned going out on A time if I knew it's an outing DS would be awake or during S time when I knew he would sleep (like in the car or buggy). Of course, it's not always possible, but it's possible then I'd try and follow his routine at least when you are implementing it. Later on it gets better when you have one OT day and a messed up routine because you know how it should be so the next day you just stay at home and go back on track.

E - Cluster feed: 7:10-7:15, 7:20-7:25, 7:45-8:00, 8:45-9:05
I really am not sure what is happening here. Is it him who is not taking a full feed or you trying to feed him so frequent so he is fuller for the night? It just seems a bit too frequent to me and can cause gas and discomfort. Usually the cluster feeds are done in the early months and are like an hour apart, not a few minutes. There is more information about it here: Cluster & Dreamfeeding FAQ's - Starting, how to do it, stopping & problems

5:50-7:00 played in Exersaucer
I am not an expert by any means, but perhaps this is too much time to be in it? Have you discussed the use of it with your ped.? I am not saying that you shouldn't use it at all, it does give you a break and that in itself is important but I am not sure if health wise it good for him to be in it a few times a day and for long periods. I found this online: http://mamaot.com/2012/05/03/exersaucers-the-good-the-bad-the-better/ but would still have a word with your ped. IIWY.

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