19 mo - having a terrible time with long NWs - please help!

[amateursuch]

Hello ladies - I'm back and its not a happy story.

DD - 19 months - always an inconsistent sleeper, but puts herself to sleep and has been on and off sleeping through for the last 5 months - albeit getting up at 5.30/ 6am.

Over the last 6 weeks we've been getting the occasional (once a week or so) long night wake, where it takes her 2 hrs to get back to sleep, and with our help. In the last week, its got much worse. 5 out of the last 7 days, she's had long night wakes and this morning she was also up at 5.30 for the day. Needless to say, we are all absolutely exhausted.

I'm pretty sure she's not teething or anything, and seems fine in the day. I also don't think its separation anxiety, because we've had a fair bit of that before and she's not demonstrating signs of it. Whats going on??

She quite often used to wake in the night and cry out, and we could put her white noise on and she'd roll over and go back to sleep. But now it seems that when she's up, she's up and can't get back to sleep for ages and without help.

Overall schedule looks like:

Wu: 5.30-6.30 (most often around or just before 6)

Nap:  set nap of 12 (anything from 1hr or 2hrs)

Bed: between 6 and 7, again depending on the length of her nap.

Please any advice?? We are pretty desperate and I hate seeing her so exhausted and sad.

[jessmum46]

Hi there and (((hugs))), so sorry you are struggling at the moment.  I have to say we have found the 'mid one year' time quite tricky for sleep so you definitely have my sympathies.

I'm guessing at the moment she is pretty OT from what you say?  Have you tried a super early BT for a day or two or offering her nap early and letting her sleep as long as she likes?  Just to catch up? 

I know you've said you don't think she is teething but does she have her molars/canines yet?  Around 18 months can be prime time for those teeth to appear and they can cause an awful lot of pain and discomfort before there are any visible signs.  We recently had two of the two year molars come through and my goodness the nights were horrendous!  Worst we've ever had including the newborn period!  Have you tried meds at all to see if they help?

Routine wise is she going straight to sleep at nap and bedtime or are you getting resistance?  We had a similar routine but recently had to push our nap later on days that DD is home - nursery days are out of my hands - and that has really helped with both BT and nights.  We now do around 6h A time pre-nap, up to around 2h nap and then 4-4.5h A afterwards.  I wonder if you pushed your nap a bit later once she's had a chance to catch up whether you might get a better WU time and then it wouldn't be such a stretch to BT?  5-6h A time is pretty long post-nap when she's already had 6h A or more beforehand......what do you think?

[amateursuch]

Thank you Katherine. Its been a long few months, and I thought it might be getting better but now its spectacularly worse!

She's definitely OT - clocked only 8 hours ONS last night, and only a 1 hr 40 nap today (and that was with my resettling her!). I put her down at 11.30 (6 hr WT which usually works well, and half an hour earlier than our 'set' naptime. Ugh.

Tonight I tried an early bedtime of 17.45 (she woke at 13.45) and she's crying and protesting now (half an hour later). So another grim night ahead I think. I wouldn't have thought she was UT, but with an ODS, much earlier BT is pretty tricky.

Medicating doesn't seem to make much difference. I often do, just in case, and on the nights when I don't, I don't usually see much difference. I medicate when she wakes (usually around 1 or 2) but again, not much difference.

6 hours A has worked well for us, and when she has had a good nap, a 4.5 A has been good. We get very little nap resistance, but on a good day it can take 15 mins to 30 mins to sleep, and often up to an hour. Usually there is very little crying, but just shuffling around and sucking her thumb so tonight is especially stressful.

We started nursery 2 days a week last week, and she managed 30 minute naps both days, and had already been a bit OT from earlier in the week, so I think we are deep in an OT cycle too.

I am just lost and exhausted at the moment and just can't seem to work out whats for the best. I hate seeing her so tired, and hate hearing her cry.

[amateursuch]

Asleep after 40 minutes of on/off crying/ whinging.  I just know tonight will be bad and the cycle starts again. What should I have done differently today? Put her down even earlier?

[jessmum46]

Oh bless you, it's rough on Mummy as well as LO when you start nursery.  Extra (((hugs))). DD took some truly terrible naps when she first started there, one day at around 14 months I think she had a 15 min nap all day!  But now she fairly reliably does at least an hour, 1h15-20 is quite common and she did once crash for over 2h after a particularly bad night with teeth.  There is hope!

Is there any chance she's tired enough that she'd take a two-nap day as a catch-up? You could do a 20 min nap in the am and then put down for a proper nap around 2.5h later?  Coupled with the earliest BT you can do?  What about APOP options?  Will she take a good nap in the car or stroller?

At some point if none of the above work she will have to crash.  She won't be able to sustain less than 10h sleep for long, and if you keep doing the earliest BT you can manage at some point she will have a NW that is early enough for her to resettle and make up some of that lost sleeping.  I have gone as early as a 5.30pm BT and that's the earliest I've been brave enough to do, but know plenty of mums who have gone as early as 5pm when LO is *that* OT.

I hope she gives you an ok night

[amateursuch]

Thanks Katherine- I needed that hope!

I could try a 2 nap day but my worry is that she'll refuse the second (which was what led to our 2-1 a fee months ago), and I'll be left with 20 mins all day! Maybe I'll try for a 9am and if she takes that I might have a chance... Unfortunately car and buggy naps have never worked (sob); she's just way too easily stimulated for them I think.

Praying for a catch up/ crash soon.

Do you think there might have become an independent sleep issue in the MOTN?

[jessmum46]

What's your instinct with it?  What are you doing to help her resettle?

I must admit though that I asked this exact same question recently after our teething troubles (and interestingly meds didn't actually help at all with our 2y molars).  J was waking every night and needing help to resettle, just a tuck in and find her lovey, but I was seriously thinking I had become a prop somehow.  But she was still going to sleep independently for nap and BT (after a few callbacks) so I couldn't make sense of it.  But once the teeth came through the middle of the night wakings stopped as well for the most part.  I just think there are some phases where they need more help (ie when OT or in discomfort) and we are so focused on independent sleeping that every time things go a bit wonky we worry about props.  But I am starting to trust more that J will only ask for help when she really needs it, and as long as we stick to our normal routines and provide that reassurance, then once she is back to her usual self then the independent sleep will return. 

[amateursuch]

I've been patting her, sitting with her. She gets cross when I stop patting although occassionally she goes quiet and I leave, only to have her start crying after about 4 minutes. We have form with her independent sleeping slipping at night time as she had a big regression at 14 months, and we had to do a bit of work again (although naps were fine). So I do have a nagging suspicion that she is having trouble getting back to sleep anyway, but is now quite used to me being there to help her do it and so whereas before she would toss and turn and whinge, and get herself back, she is now yelling for me.

That said, she slept 6.30 - 5.15 last night. I'm sure that's not great for most people but she's always been a 10.5/11 max ONS, and given our last few nights the lack of waking was a joy. Never thought I'd be pleased to see 5.15 on a clock!

I put her down a bit early for her nap today, so she was asleep (with a bit of protesting) by 11.50 and is still asleep, so hopefully I'll get an hour and a half out of her. And then aim for another EBT? 17.45ish?

[amateursuch]

An hour 50 in the end, which is good for her. What time bedtime? She's just woken at 13.45. 6ish?

[jessmum46]

I'd go for 6 pm x

[amateursuch]

Well down just after 6 and asleep by 25 past or so, calm no crying which was good. Sleep cry at 1.30, SS. Then awake at 3.30 - just crying out briefly every 5-10 minutes (kept thinking she'd gone back to sleep) but then started ramping up. Gave her meds at 4 and then started patting at 4.30 as she was upset. Asleep at 5, up 6.30. So she managed 10.5 hrs. I'm struggling though. I just don't get what's causing this.

[amateursuch]

Ok so I think we've got a 1 hr 50 nap again, although I did have to resettle briefly at just over an hour (I put down at just over 5 hrs 30 and I think its a bit short for her - she does better on around 6 hrs A but given her short nights I didn't want to push it).

So WU at 2.05. Bed 6.15/20?

[jessmum46]

Sounds good to me x

[amateursuch]

Bed at 18.20 - asleep about half an hour later, with a bit of whinging. Awake for 4 hours in the night - midnight till 4. She was calm while I was patting her, but didn't sleep, and cried when I stopped. In the end, I had to leave her as I was too exhausted - she was pretty calm, whinged a bit and then fell asleep until 7. Nursery today so another 30 minute nap.  I'm so tired, broken and sad for her that I can't get her the sleep she needs.

Given that my patting/ stroking didn't actually get her to sleep last night, and I'm pretty sure that despite her runny nose she's not in any pain, I think I need to start withdrawing intervention. I think what used to help her get to sleep, she now wants in the night but conversely is actually stimulating and preventing her sleeping.

[jessmum46]

Agreed.  If she's been an independent sleeper in the past I would go back to using WIWO xx