Tears at bedtime and NW or EW. Last A time causing us problems?

[lolsyb1982]

Hi I have posted in the general sleep board before but am still struggling with DD who is 8 1/2 months old. Since about 6 months we have had NW most days or periods of EW instead.

She goes to sleep great for naps by herself but at bedtime it's a different story. She won't self soothe and I end up rocking/holding to sleep which I know I shouldn't but as she can put herself to sleep I assume there's a reason she can't at bedtime? She will then wake typically once a night. Again she will rarely self soothe, sometimes she will if I have fed her.
She isn't waking from hunger I don't think as will only take a couple of oz but I do offer it as she isn't a big eater during the day (but that's a whole separate issue!)

This is her routine for the past couple of days. The last A time she can handle seems to be really short and she will often start rubbing her eyes 2 hours after her last nap but I can't get her to bed that quick.

Is there anything I can tweak in her routine? I am returning back to work in Jan and I feel this is just going to spiral out of control once she is with the childminder who won't be so regimental with her routine and has school runs etc but I will have to deal with that when it happens.

Many thanks, any help would be greatly appreciated as I am starting to find the whole thing very frustrating!!!

EASY

Tuesday
Wake 5.55 (10hr night sleep with 1 waking)
Sleep 9.15 - 10.30
Sleep 2.15 - 4.00 (think I may have woke her by moving around upstairs. Very rare she sleeps past 1.5 hrs)
Bed (put down after 2.50 as yawned a few times. Starts crying after 10 mins of babbling. Rocked. Asleep 7.15

Thursday
Wake 5.15 (10 hours again but no NW) still tired I think but she couldn't get herself back to sleep
Nap 8.40 - 10.10
Nap 1.50 - 3.15
Bed (eye rubbing started after 2 hours, pd after 2.35 (5.50) as was continuous by then)
Lots of talking in cot. Starts moaning/whinging crying after 10 mins but not mantra. Ended up rocking. Asleep 6.20
Woke 00.40. Fed fell back to sleep couple of times but kept waking after 10 mins. Almost hour half before asleep properly.

Friday
Woke 6.20. Grumpy. By 8 o clock was having a meltdown and being so we have to go out late morning I have put her back to bed.

[Ima shel Alon]

How long has been the rocking going on? If it's more than a few days then it might have become a prop and she is relying on you to go fall asleep. If you think this is the case then I think the only way to tackle this is with PU/PD.
BTW, babies treat day sleep and night sleep a whole lot different so the fact she can ss for naps doesn't mean she knows how to do it for night time sleep.

It also seems that when you give her 3.5h A time in the morning she gives you a better nap than with a 3h A time, which might in fact be too short for her. I'd try and keep the morning A time to 3.5 and keep the day 12h and not more.
On Thursday when you put her at 17:50 to bed she woke up more than 12h later (even if she had NW) and that's great. She probably went into this loop that she goes to bed OT and then has EW. If we can establish the day to be 12h and see that it works then we can start and try slowly to shift her day an hour later. Mind you, it doesn't always work, but one can hope .

[lolsyb1982]

Hi thanks for your reply. Yes the rocking has been for longer. I think she would settle by herself at night too if I got the A time right. Tonight I put her down after 2hrs 20 mins which was 5.20pm. She fell asleep by herself within 10 mins only to wake up 35 mins later  and now I have just heard her again so OT still.
Ok so for tomorrow 3.5 hr A time for both naps and then make sure she is down at night to be asleep for 12 hours.
Will let you know how I go!!!!

Thanks

[lolsyb1982]

Quick update so far.. Last wake up was 11pm. Slept until 5.30, fed her and fell back to sleep where I woke her at 7 (although don't think she was too happy with me!)

[Ima shel Alon]

Wow, that sounds like a great update!

What I meant is to have a 12h day, but not more, so allow a 12 or more hours of sleep at night. She might like her night to be 13h and her day to be 11h, there are babies who like it like that.

And maybe it really works if you treat the EW as a NW, feed and hope that she goes back to bed.

[lolsyb1982]

Well today has gone pretty downhill... Cried all day and 2 rubbish naps. Think she may be unwell or teething  as she's never this miserable and upset

What do I do if once she settles down her nights are only 11 hours? Before the problems began and she slept through every night she would only do 11 hours.

Thanks

[Ima shel Alon]

Ok, many babies sleep 11h and do a 13h day (DS was like that), but the thing is that if things have been tough lately then you don't know if that what she needs now as well or she changed. When in doubt I would go for allowing 12h nights rather than 11 and when things settle, if you see she is doing better on 11h a night then you can adjust your day accordingly.

[lolsyb1982]

Thanks am sticking with the shorter days as nights are worse. Wondering if this could be a sleep regression as she's waking now every 2/3 hours and just crying. It's taking at least an hour each time to put her back to sleep. (Have posted in the PUPD board to how to start this to deal with the wakings)

[Ima shel Alon]

There might be some tweaking that needs to be done. Would you like to post a recent EASY?

[lolsyb1982]

We had a great day/night yesterday. Kept her day to just under 12 hours. One wake up for a feed, back to sleep within half hour and had a 12hr night! Long may it continue!!!

[Ima shel Alon]

Great news!