Author Topic: Doing PUPD with a 13 month old who has been co sleeping. We need a plan!  (Read 1307 times)

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Offline peacefulwarrior

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We have a 13 month old son who is not sleep trained.  He has been co-sleeping since birth.  After the first couple months, he has always gone to sleep in his crib for naps and at the beginning of the night.  He gets rocked to sleep, which has taken anywhere from 10-45 minutes depending on the night.  He does not know how to go to sleep on his own, as he does not go down drowsy and put himself to sleep.  For a long time, he would go to sleep after being rocked at the beginning of the night, and usually wake again within an hour or two.  When he would wake, we would be able to rock him back to sleep and put him back in his crib.  The next time he would wake, usually an hour or two after being put back to bed, his mother would take him in bed with her, breastfeed him, and allow him to sleep with her for the rest of the night.  He would wake occasionally throughout the night, and usually breastfeed and go right back to sleep.  Some nights it would be challenging to get him to go back to sleep.  Recently it has become extremely difficult to get him to go to sleep.  He still takes two naps during the day, the first of which is easy to get him to sleep for.  However, he often has trouble going to sleep for his second nap, and now has begun fighting going to sleep at bedtime.  He will not even relax to be rocked for his father, as he will push off of him, squirm, yell and point at the bedroom door.  For his mother, he will often relax but then wake up when she tries to put him down in his crib.  We had been hoping he would “grow out of” all of the props and dependency but things have regressed to the point that we are now on board with sleep training him, but we don’t know where to begin.  With our older child, we used pick up put down, but she was accustomed to being put down drowsy and falling asleep on her own.  We’re not sure if our son will respond to PUPD because he is not accustomed to going to sleep without being rocked asleep and then put down.
Any help very much appreciated!
Monica

Offline *Becky*

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Re: Doing PUPD with a 13 month old who has been co sleeping. We need a plan!
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2014, 13:18:19 pm »
Hi,
PUPD is not recommended for lo's over the age of but there are ST methods which are suitable. In this case I would imagine you will need to do a from of Gradual Withdrawal - have you heard of this? I can direct you to some links if you would like?
Could we also see his routine - it could be he needs to go to 1 nap or else have a v short am nap. What do you think?




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Offline peacefulwarrior

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Re: Doing PUPD with a 13 month old who has been co sleeping. We need a plan!
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 17:49:08 pm »
Hello and thanks for your response.  I lost my password to this site and it took a while to get back here.  So here we are :)
I have not heard of gradual withdrawal.  Yes please give me links that would be great.
I am actually still open to co-sleeping.  What I would like to do most in terms of sleep training is training him to fall asleep on his own.
We messed up and never put him down drowsy. 
So how do we go from bouncing him (on an exercise ball) to get him to fall asleep to just being able to lay him down and let him roll around do whatever he does until he falls asleep on his own?
Right now if I lay him down at bedtime he just cries.  He has no idea that he can just be in his crib and fall asleep on his own.
Mind you he has no fear of his crib and we do have him play in it during the day.
It's just that he is expecting a certain routine (because that's what we've been doing) so I don't think he even knows he can fall asleep on his own.
Any ideas?  Also, he falls asleep at nap time very easily, with a minimal amount of bouncing.  But at bed time, the whole wind down and bedtime process takes about 45 minutes.
Here is his schedule
Awake 730 am
Sleep 11-12:30 (sometimes he goes down as early as 10:30 for this nap and other times as late as 11:30, we just follow his cues).  He always sleeps for about an hour and 15 min in this nap
Awake
2nd nap usually 3:30-4:15
Nighttime 8:30
The other problem is that 2 nights a week I work until 9 pm and he won't go to sleep until I get home.  Not only because i think he's used to it but also because he is breastfed and won't take a bottle.  So he won't have seen me all day (and gotten no milk because he wont take it any other way).  So I come home and breastfeed him and put him to sleep.

Thanks so much!
Monica

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Doing PUPD with a 13 month old who has been co sleeping. We need a plan!
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 10:22:08 am »
Hi Monica (apologies in advance for the long reply!)

The link about gradual withdrawal is here (ignore the information on WIWO): Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

In terms of sleep training the easiest context in which to do it is if LO sleeps in their own crib in their own room.  But I understand that's not how many families wish to do things, and that's fine, it can just make things a little more difficult.  If you still want him in your room, then probably I would aim to have him sleep in his own crib all night, especially when starting up with sleep training.  Consistency makes a huge difference to how well LOs respond to sleep training - he won't understand the reasons if sometimes it's ok to be in your bed and sometimes it isn't.  If I'm completely honest (and this is based mainly on reading the experience of other mums on this site as I never co-slept) I think to combine sleep training with an intention for LO to sleep in your bed all night will be very difficult as he is likely to continue to depend on your presence to be able to fall asleep even if he isn't rocked or fed.

How do you feel about that?

In terms of his routine is the BT of 8.30pm when you start your bouncing or is that when he falls asleep?  Just looking at his routine I would think that potentially he could be a bit overtired (OT) by BT even though his naps are reasonable as he has his longest awake period of the day after his shortest sleep.  I would be tempted to push his morning nap a touch later, 15-30 mins, to see if you can get a full 1.5h nap.  And then bring his BT a touch earlier e.g. something like

WU 7.30
Nap 11.15/30-1ish
Nap 4-4.45
BT 8pm

The only other thing that I noticed is that you were potentially breastfeeding him to sleep a couple of nights per week?  Does he still feed overnight?  At his age he doesn't *need* milk in the same way a young baby does - although breastfeeding obviously has benefits as long as you continue, milk is actually only a drink once they are over one and all of their nutritional needs can be met by solid food, with drinks of other things e.g. water. 

All of the above said my suggestions would be:

Start with the first nap of the day and then continue from there
Do a short winddown routine, it can include some bouncing if you wish to get LO calm but not drowsy or closing his eyes
Lie him down in the crib fully awake
Say a sleep phrase e.g. It's just sleep time, you're going to sleep
Sit down next to his crib
If he stands up/cries/fusses just calmly tell him to lie down and repeat your sleep phrase
Stay right with him until he falls asleep
For naps try for 45 minutes and then give both of you a break
On the first day or two he will almost certainly skip naps - that's ok, don't worry and don't try to prevent OT by resorting to your usual props.  You can go for a super early BT if he skips all naps.
At bedtime you stick it out for as long as he takes to fall asleep, no break after 45 mins, and the same at night wakings.
At his age you could cut out all night feeds cold turkey as he doesn't need them from a nutritional point of view.  But if you feel that's too much change all at once you could set some times e.g. 11pm and 5am and say you will feed him at those times but no other wakings. 

Once he is going to sleep in his crib with you next to him, you can use gradual withdrawal to move further from the crib and eventually out of the room.

What do you think?


Offline DKM

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Re: Doing PUPD with a 13 month old who has been co sleeping. We need a plan!
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2014, 14:33:55 pm »
Hi Monica, I'm currently using PUPD for my 13 month old. I was only posting about it last week and am making great progress already. I should mention that my LO was sleeping already in his cot but just waking frequently and becoming more difficult to settle. I knew that one of the other methods which involved leaving the room would just have him screaming and wouldn't really suit. PUPD is tough going initially but you can see the results only after a few nights. Best of luck and would love to know how you get on?
D.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Doing PUPD with a 13 month old who has been co sleeping. We need a plan!
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2014, 15:48:23 pm »
Just for info here's the PUPD info with age adaptations - How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations). You'll see that in the 8-12m group (the oldest the advice is given for) that you do almost no picking up and mainly use your voice to reassure.  It's also recommended you combine it with gradual leaving of the room :). I'm sure you'll find the right combination of things to suit you and your LO x

Offline peacefulwarrior

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Re: Doing PUPD with a 13 month old who has been co sleeping. We need a plan!
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 22:12:10 pm »
Thanks SOO MUCH for the long reply.  I so appreciate all the work you put into it :)
We have done that nap schedule before 11:30-1 and 4-4:45.
His bedtime does vary a bit because of my work schedule.  Two nights a week I don't get home til 9 pm so I start putting him to bed as soon as I get home. 
Also he actually does sleep in his crib the first few hours.  He goes to bed around 8:30 and when he wakes between 10:30 and 11:30, I take him to bed with me for the night.
And he also takes both naps alone in his crib.  He's a great napper actually.
I'll kit with you guys if we do some of your suggestions moving forward.
I did do PUPD with my daughter and to be honest, I didn't like it at all.  And in regards to temperment, my son is much more needy than my daughter was at this age.  So I'm just not sure how comfortable I feel with it.
I just wanted to see if we could get him to fall asleep independently.
We'll see.
Thanks so much!
Monica

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Doing PUPD with a 13 month old who has been co sleeping. We need a plan!
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 08:51:59 am »
Let us know how you get on :)