3 hour A time for 4.5mo old? Too soon for 2 naps?

[Fefekabob]

Hi there! I have received so much help from BW forums already and appreciate all the help so far! Especially, creations for all your words of wisdom!

Right now I'm really struggling with the A time. My LO has taken naps anywhere from 35min- 1.5 hours. Never ever has had a nap longer than that. He does fall asleep independently. I rock him and sway a little, and then place him in his crib awake but sleepy. I usually do a couple pats on the bottom and then he falls asleep. He's doing well at night for the most part. He might wake up and babble sometimes for 20min, but knows how to put himself back to sleep. I know those NW are due to being UT... I just can't figure out what to do.

Here's an example of our day:

WU: 6:00
E: 6:15
E: 8:20
A: 2hour 45 min, always cries with WD
S: 8:45-9:40 (55min). Wakes up happy

E: 11:20
A: 2hour 30min. Cries hard with WD
S: 12:10- 12:45 (35min). Wakes up happy, then fusses after 5 min
    1:15-2:00 (45)

E: 3:20
A: 2 hour 15/30/45 (depends on how long it takes to sleep)
S: 4:15/4:30/4:45 - the hardest one for him to go down for. Screams bloody murder! Will end up napping for 35 min. This nap seems really forced on him.

E: 6:30
A: 1 hour 45 min
S: 7:00

NF: 12:30/1:00

In just wondering if it's normal for an 18 week old to move to 2 naps a day? Because if I do 3 hours A time, that would have to be a two nap day. Any suggestions?

[creations]

Hi.
When you say he cries at WD when does the crying start? for example is it before you mention a nap and begin WD or is it at the start of WD as you enter his bedroom etc? I'm just trying to figure out if he's getting a bit OT for the nap and crying or if he's protesting the nap because he isn't ready yet. Mine screamed blue murder when I tried to put him down too early, he totally knew when he needed to nap - if only I'd known as well as he did!

The A times are already pretty high for age so I'd be cautious to increase although I agree looking at his EASY it does look like he might be ready for a longer A and two decent length naps.

[Fefekabob]

Oh no... He is a totally happy baby until I start closing the blinds. He's fine with the diaper change, looks at me all cute and happy and chats away. But once the blinds close, the crying begins.

If I was to do A times based off his cues, I would be completely off. he shows sleepy signs when he's hungry and fusses when he's bored.

Today I kept him up 3 hours in the morning and he was pretty hard to console to sleep. I assumed he was OT, but then he took a 30 min nap and woke up smiling and cheerful again. He didn't cry out for 20 min, and then when I tried to put him back to sleep he was laughing at me. Knew I wasn't going to get another nap out of him.

Before second nap I did 2.5 hours A time. Went down much happier... Then took a 42 min nap. Woke up and was trying for 25min to settle back to sleep. Slept a minute then woke oup, slept a minute then woke up. He finally got really frustrated so I intervened and patted his bottom till right before he fell asleep. Then he took a 50 min nap (ended up being 30 min after he woke up)

Not sure what to do now...

[1sttimemamma]

Following! I have a 19 week old with terrible naps. But, he always wakes happy and smiling and could lay in the crib for a really long time just checking stuff out, so there is no way to extend the nap.

[creations]

Hmm, tricky.
If he is now on a 3hr E but you are offering a 3hr A he doesn't get a chance to S before being hungry again.
Most 4 month olds are moving or have moved to a 4hr EASY. Can you gradually extend his E times to 3hr 15 for a couple of days then 3hr 30 for a couple of days and so on until you have a 4hr E.  Even at 4hr E with a 3hr A he only gets chance of a 1hr S before being hungry again, but, he 'should' be taking in more at each E and able to last the 4hrs. We might be able to look at a top up before a nap if needed.

The crying you describe sounds UT, I'm going to assume he is a very alert and inquisitive LO
Maybe look (and record for yourself) what sort of activities you are doign during his A time, for instance does he have lots of floor time or is he in the stroller/bouncing chair a lot, does he get lots of mental stimulation with books, toys, blocks, musical instruments/rattles. There might be a way to tweak his stimulation level to make him physically and mentally tired and ready for a nap - whilst not over stimulating which will prevent him relaxing well to sleep.  For now just record for yourself what he does so you can begin to see any patterns. For instance if you take him to a baby swim class this would tire him physically sooner than if he is in a bouncer watching you fold laundry (which is still a great activity but not the same yk).

Can you pop in to him at about 25 min and do a W2S to try to get him to nap longer than the 30 or 40 mins? Pat him through the transition and into deep sleep so he doesn't get a chance to fully wake.

With the NW if he is just babbling and not calling/crying for you it's fine to just leave him to it. Tracy said LOs often wake at night and will eventually put themselves back to sleep (if they can and if they are not disturbed which can make the NW habitual or the resettling a prop).

[Fefekabob]

Yes, definitely tricky this LO.

I had him on 4 H EASY but he was spitting up a lot more. His GI specialist said that because of his reflux it would be better to feed less but more frequently.

Yesterday ended up like this and we had 3 UT night wakings. He resettled himself after 15 min but the worst being at 4:45-5:45 (wide awake couldn't go back to sleep)

WU: 6
A: 3 H
S: 9:00-9:30 (30 min)
A: 2.5 H
S: 12:00-12:45 (45min), 1:15-2:05 (50min)
A: 2.75 H
S: 4:50-5:25 (35min)
A: 1.75 H
S: 7:05

NW: 9:05, 10:30
NF: 12:45
NW: 4:45-5:45

He does do a lot of tummy time and rolling over. He just learned to roll to his belly. Does not yet know how to roll to his back. He also spends lots of time watching 2 yr old brother. We will read books, dance to music, sing songs using LO's hands and feet as part of the song. Or we will sit on the patio looking at trees and birds. He probably gets more visual stimulation than physical. I can work on that.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hi, just want to pop in and say my DD3 went to 2 naps at 4 months (we were getting some ridiculous UT NW's!) and what I started doing was to do a top up feed 15-20 min before naps, so the day was more EAEAS. There is actually mention of it somewhere here ofTracy having a family do that with a lo with high A times at an early age. It worked fornus and did not create any feed to sleep habitor snacking.

[creations]

a top up feed 15-20 min before naps

Yes this was my thinking too.

It's ok to continue with the 3hr feeds as it's by design - mine also stayed on 3hr E until he was 6 months due to silent reflux and needing to eat more frequently - if you already told me about his need for 3hrly E before I'm sorry I forgot!

So, yes, I would move the A up and try to consolidate the 3 shorter naps into 2 better naps.

I'd start with 3hr A, use W2S to try to extend, follow whatever nap you get with another 3hr A or as close as you can and another W2S.  Then 2 to 2hr 30 A to BT.  I'd be looking for something like an 11hr day with an EBT and fingers crossed for a 12 to 13hr night.  The longer night may not happen day 1 or 2 but possibly after that - I also wouldn't expect it to last for ever, mine did a 12 - 13hr night for a short period and then reverted to his regular 10.5 to 11hr night once he could cope with the day better.
What do you think?

Feel free to chime in Heidi if you think I'm off track here

[Fefekabob]

I think I'm going to try exactly what you said and see how things go. One question though... You said aim for 3 hour A time no matter how nap #1 goes. Even if it's 35min? 

I can definitely do EBT with him.. He has done 12-13  hours before to catch up.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I would try to do the 2nd A as long as possible even after a short nap...I also ap'd to get a decent nap length until she started to do it on her own. Kind of trained her into set naps without intending to! We have never been able to do ebt as she does not tack on but she manages alright anyways - we are in the 2-1 already

[creations]

Wow Heidi you've got a seriously active one on your hands haven't you

You said aim for 3 hour A time no matter how nap #1 goes. Even if it's 35min? 

Yes. And as Heidi says, AP if needed.  The reason being that if you are only going to get short naps anyway you need them spread across the day to reach BT otherwise you can end up with shorter As AND short naps and a monster long A time before bed which can lead to awful nights, lots of OT NWs and EW.  you need to aim to get the naps, regardless of length, spread out so you can make it to BT. Also though if she is high A and low sleep needs reducing her A time is going to be counterproductive, she needs to be tired, really tired to help her get a longer nap, even an APed one.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Oh creations she is a force to be reckoned with...she is already pulling up and trying to cruise! My last baby just wont stay a baby!

I agree regarding stretching things out...these lsn babies needs loads of A time to get a good nap or you are stuck like we were yesterday (had to be out and got a first nap of 30 min in the van) where I had to ap 2 more 30 min naps to get to a decent bedtime. My issue is that any more than 2 hrs of day sleep gets ut nw's as does a catnap too close to bedtime (has to have at least 3/3.5 hrs prior and a 30 min nap max).