8,5 month old night wakings and dummy!!

[Cleoandskye]

Hello lovely parents,

I need some help please, beginning to feel quite desperate.

My baby is 8,5 months old. She has been a standard textbook child and had been sleeping through from 9 weeks until 5,5 months when she contracted RSV and landed up on medication that disrupted her sleep and in hospital. Since then sleep has become an issue. Crying it out has and will never be an option for me, even though everyone, from my paediatrician to my midwife have suggested it. I turned to the baby whisper book, and fell in love with the emotional intelligence and gentleness that it recommends. I'm trying to follow as best i can with an active 8,5 month old, but am worried that i am failing as after 2,5 weeks there has been no change.

Her daily routine is never quite the same as she doesn't have a standard wake up time and i never let her push past 3 hours of wake time. However her day goes something like this:
5:30 - Wake up
6 - BF as well as formula top up (my milk supply seems particularly low)
7:15 - solid
8 - sleep
8:45 - wake and we try get her back to sleep by popping dummy in her mouth and placing our hand on her back) somedays it works and within 15 minutes shes back to sleep for another 45, other days theres not a chance she'll sleep again. In this case lets for argument sake say she goes down for another 45, she then wakes at 9:45
9:45 - wake
10 - snack and water
12 - sleep (once again she usually wakes at 45 minutes)
1:15 - solids lunch
3:00 - bottle
3:30 - sleep
5 - solids supper
6 - bottle, read a book, bed

Her daytime naps never go over 45 minutes without us intervening and getting her back down. We stay with her until she falls asleep at bedtime and at her naps, there is never really any crying, just a couple of moans, there is only crying when she's still awake and we leave the room.

Her bedtime routine starts after dinner at about 5:30, she has quiet playtime on our bed in soft light with curtains closed, she then has a bath with either myself or her daddy. After bath its straight to her room where blinds are closed and we quietly dress her, swaddle her and give her her bottle at about 6. After bottle its story time. At about 6:20 we pop dummy in her mouth give her kisses and cuddles and put her in her cot. I stay with her until she falls asleep which usually takes 10 - 20 minutes. I usually have to place my hand on her, but she doesn't cry and I don't pick her up again once she's down.

I breastfeed in the morning but she seems to be weaning, so will only take my right breast for a couple of minutes before she's over the slow let down, I then top her up with formula. Between 2:30 and 3:30 she gets another formula bottle and then again at 6 she gets a bottle of expressed breastmilk and a top up of formula. She has started rejecting breastfeeding, so I express to make sure she still gets some of my milk and not just formula. Shes taking approx 150 mls at 6am, 130mls at 2:30pm and 180 mls at 6pm.

She almost always wakes 90 minutes after we put her down for the night. I go in pop the dummy back in her mouth, roll her over and within a minute or two she's asleep again. She then seems to wake again around 10:15pm, then again at 11:30pm and then again at 1:15am, and sometimes at 4am (these aren't always the same times, but Ive just taken it over a week, and this is the most common night waking routine shes having. She then wakes for the day at 5:30 where we pop her in our bed and I breastfeed her at 6. 

Mostly I feel she is just waking for me to put the dummy back in her mouth. She doesn't cry and if she does a firm hand on her back and reassuring words will get her to drop off within 20. Mostly shes back asleep after I put the dummy back in within 2 minutes or so.

I go through when it becomes a cry. It may very well be a mantra cry, but when I have tried to leave her it almost always turns into a full blown cry which makes it harder to get her back to sleep.

The dummy and rolling her over settles her with  my hand on her back. If I see shes very restless and doesn't want to settle I often put some teething gel on her gums as she's been teething lately and am worried that she may be in discomfort. The teething gel settles her quickly.

For A time we play with her toys, read books, walk in the pram, swinging in the park, shes pretty good at playing by herself as long as we're not too far away. Her A time is usually an hour to an hour and a half

She cut her second tooth three days ago. She has just started moving about on her tummy and has started being able to lift herself into a sitting position when in her cot, using the cot bars.

Shes on three solid meals a day as well as a snack. between 180 and 250mls of food per meal.

She has her dudu blankie and her dummies. I have placed 6 in her cot in the hope that she'll start popping them into her mouth by herself during the night.

I am presuming that her night wakings are for the dummy, but am not sure. I am hoping that she'll start popping them back into her own mouth and not needing me to do it, but am worried it is becoming a bad habit and that me always doing it is causing her to be reliant on me doing it.

I would so love any feedback or advice any of you can give me as I am feeling incredibly unsupported by my decision to not allow her to cry-it-out, and have started second guessing myself constantly.

Thank you

With love x

[Skadiver13]

Hi hun just wanted to let you know I will pop in later and do a proper response.

[Cleoandskye]

Thank you so much Skadiver13, I appreciate your response. Look forward to hearing what you (or anyone else) have to advise and hopefully getting some rest.

Blessings x

[Skadiver13]

Hi hun, welcome.. A few questions.

I stay with her until she falls asleep which usually takes 10 - 20 minutes.

What would happen if you just leave her to settle herself? I.e. put her down drowsy but not alseep and leave the room. It's ok if she moans and groans and even mantra cries a bit. That's not CIO.

Mostly I feel she is just waking for me to put the dummy back in her mouth.

What's your thought on just weaning the dummy at this point? Does she replug herself during the day? One thing you could do instead of putting it back in her mouth for her jsut hand her the dummy and the first few nights guide her hand to her mouth and let her know she can do it herself.

Her A time is usually an hour to an hour and a half

Do you mean eyes open to eyes shut it's only 1.5hrs? Your EASY looks like you are doing about 3hrs? I would say maybe stretch that A time in the morning to try and get a longer than 45min nap but if she doesn't selep more than 45min maybe lessen the second a time a bit so she's not OT by BT?

Are her NW's long? What is she like when she wakes up?

[Cleoandskye]

Thanks so much for your response.

In answer to your questions:

We've attempted putting her down drowsy and leaving the room. She starts off moaning and groaning, but eventually she turns to a full on cry. It's much worse during the day. If it's a night waking she can often settle after the dummy is back in her mouth.

She can put the dummy in her mouth during the day, but at night is relying on us. I wouldn't even know how to begin weaning her off her dummy, would it not cause her distress to have it taken away?

I apologize if I've possibly written her routine down incorrectly, still getting used to this all. From eyes open to eyes shut it is usually between 2,5 and 3 hours.

Her night wakings are usually short. It's normally getting the dummy in her mouth and rolling her over, then we're out. However the last two night she's had one wake up where she's up for a good 20 minutes to an hour. I suppose one positive, is when she wakes for these longer times she's pretty chipper and wants to play, which beats crying I suppose. However, I could do without it at 11:30pm or 3:30am 

She never wakes up so upset that I need to pick her up.

With regards to a 4 hour routine how would I schedule that around her three main meals, three milk bottles and mid morning snack? Battling to fit it all in in the four hour routine. At the moment her first milk bottle is at around 6am.

She's no stranger to routine, and has been on some form of a routine from birth, however EASY is new to us. Any routine you suggest I'll try.

Thank you again for your response. Really comforting knowing there's support out there, as I was truly feeling at my wits end.

Blessings xxx

[Skadiver13]

Ok some of my thoughts. If she can replug during the day then she should be able to do so at night. Make sure she has alot of them in her crib and if you want to start showing her at night then as I said before don't replug for her, hand it to her and let her do it herself. But if she isn't able to go asleep with out you with her than that might need to wait while you work on the indepenant sleep.  Take a look at the shuh/pat and general sleep training links.
Shush-pat - How to

Shush-pat - How to

Sample EASY Routines from 0 - 13mths+

The basics are you start while drowsy and then over a period of days you work on putting them down in the crib more and more awake while you are still in the room but working your way to the door so at some point you can just leave. There will be crying, tears, snot etc. But you are with them while it is happening and reassuring them that you are there but that they need to sleep etc. That is the difference between this and CIO.

Secondly if she's very chipper during the middle of the night that could indicate she is UT from her day? What is your current EASY during the day she has those NW'ings?

[Cleoandskye]

Okay, so after your advice we seem to have nailed day time sleeps. Our schedule looks something like this:
5:30/6am wake up
6:15 Bottle
7:30 Breakfast
8:30/9 sleep (90 minutes)
10/10:30 snack
12/12:30 lunch
1/1:30 sleep (90 minutes)
3 bottle
5 dinner
6 bottle
6:15/6:30 bed

We've managed to get her to the point where we put her down with dummy and blankie, tell her it's sleepy time and leave the room. Usually she has been able to just put herself to sleep. Occasionally we have to go in, give her the dummy again, tell her it's sleepy time and we leave again. It never takes more than 20 minute.....during the DAY!!

There are plenty dummies in her cot (inc glow in the dark) and during the day she is more than capable of popping into her mouth.

However.....the night wakings begin and continue throughout the night. Occasionally it's just moaning, in which case we've started leaving her to settle herself, but more often than not the moans turn into a cry. Majority of the time it's entails going through trying desperately to get her to put her dummy in her mouth without me, but she resists taking the dummy and doing it herself, so eventually I put the dummy in her mouth, roll her on her side and then we're done. We are having one long night wake of about 20 minutes somewhere between 11:30pm and 2am. I can't seem to find a pattern to her night wakings. Now that we've cut her third nap out, she's definitely not as chipper during her night wakings, and on the days when her last sleep ends at 2:30 she can be quite difficult to put down, which makes me worried that maybe she is now overtired? Sometimes they begin 90 minute after we've put her down, other times her first wake up is at 11:30pm. Some nights she wakes twice, other nights she can wake up up to 8 times!!! We never pick her up when she wakes as it's never a huge cry, and if it is a cry, we can often settle her with a ssshh and a firm hand on her arm. The other night she went as far as crying with the dummy in her mouth and only settled 15 minutes later when I sat in the chair next to her cot.

Where to from here?

With love and thanks

[Skadiver13]

Majority of the time it's entails going through trying desperately to get her to put her dummy in her mouth without me, but she resists taking the dummy and doing it herself, so eventually I put the dummy in her mouth

hi hun, I hate to say it but by you giving in just reinforces the waking/crying because she knows if she holds out eventually you are just going to do it for her. I think you have two choices, just keep handing it to her until she does it herself or wean the dummy all together.

She could also be going through some Seperation anxiety which just needs to be ridden out most of the time.  What's her current EASY?