Author Topic: Multiple sleep issues, help prioritize!!  (Read 967 times)

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Offline Linzee602

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Multiple sleep issues, help prioritize!!
« on: October 15, 2014, 19:45:57 pm »
I need help tackling multiple sleep issues with my 4.5 month old boy!! This will be a doozy for sure so I will try to simplify in effort to avoid a novel:

 NAPS/DAYTIME:  4.5 months old, cannot get on EASY bc he is a lazy nurser and only has snacks most of the time. By the time he is sleepy he is hungry again. I live with my MIL who, in efforts to help during the day, started rocking and singing him to sleep, then lets him sleep on her. She won't put him down (even at my request) bc she can't stand him even whimpering slightly, and I'm running after a noisy spirited toddler (between the 2, the baby is easier for her to handle if she is helping out). I can't leave her out of the process of helping but she is elderly and there is a language barrier and she doesn't take direction well so I can't rely on her to implement any routines. We have no solid routine because of the nature of our days. Needless to say he will not sleep on his own, and at night ( and during the day when she is not around) I have to nurse him to sleep. If I nap him by nursing, I can almost never put him down once asleep and even if I do, he wakes early. He always naps short, even in my arms. With my MIL sometimes he sleeps hours but that's on her body.

 NIGHT: He knows night from day, but is an inconsistent night sleeper, back and forth between 5-7 hr stretches and every 1.5hr wakings. He has a solid bedtime routine, but won't  go to sleep w/o nursing or bottle, and I have spent from 8-10:45 most nights getting him in the crib. The second I put him in he usually wakes up. 10:45 seems to be his self-appointed bedtime, but even sometimes it's later. It's difficult to start bedtime any earlier than 8, as my toddler goes to bed at 8 and he has a bedtime routine as well that i need to be part of. I can't overlap bc toddler is very disruptive and interfering if I'm doing anything with baby. I have taken to co-sleeping after a many nights of frequent wakenings and now he is more attached to the boob than ever. When we do cosleep he wakes up and roots around frequently, with the exception being in morning hours where I can actually sneak away and leave him in bed sometimes for 2 hrs (but he loves his face to be dangerously smushed against pillows or the bed!!) Because the times of sleep are so inconsistent, there is no solid wake time. Its usually at whatever point I have woken up (only bc toddler woke up) that he will get anywhere from 1-2 hrs more sleep then cry for me bc I'm not there and then he starts his day. Even when he was going into crib at night and after night wakings, he would only sleep in our bed once daylight hit.

 ANOMALIES: There have actually been times here and there that he fell asleep on his own after being put down for a minute, or in the stroller or car, or with coaxing in a swaddle in boppy or bouncy seat, but I can count them on my fingers. It is certainly not consistent, but those times SEEM to occur when there is some more consistency from one day to the next, or when there has been even a hint of an EASY schedule, or when my MIL was out of town or had not handled him for some time.

OTHER PROBLEMS: The slightest sound seems to wake him up, and when in the stroller or car, the slightest bump or even stopping does the same. My toddler is very noisy and spirited, requiring much of my attention. I have turned to TV to pacify him but I am desperately trying to break that as well. There have been MANY times that he was sleeping soundly then woken up by toddler shrieks and screams.  I am never sure if he is still hungry, which makes it difficult to determine if he is waking or crying for fatigue or hunger (diaper output is very good though) and he might even have a bit of silent reflux. Although I am sure he is overtired a lot, he only gets really fussy about it at night.

 WHAT HAVE I DONE? I have swaddled which worked to get him into those 5-7 hr stretches but didn't continue to work all the time. Tried paci but he usually just takes it right out after making a face. I have a noise machine which I now use religiously. I tried EASY but like I said he eats too frequently. I tried pu/pd last 2 nights in a row but he was so shrill just even being put down that I gave up both nights. He did NOT want to be comforted in the crib. First night was almost 3 hrs of trying and after 1 hr last night I decided to come here to find out if it should even be the 1st plan of attack for me. I tried getting him to put his fingers in his mouth to soothe but he only actually did it once or twice during the day and for pu/pd he wasn't having any of that!  He also doesn't seem to respond to shush pat unless I am also bouncing him.

SO WHAT NOW? What do I focus on first?  Do I tackle early wakings, short naps, sleep props, making bedtime earlier, getting him to sleep through noise, or the overtiredness that he is surely experiencing?  I thought pu/pd was the best place to start but maybe not?

If anyone is still reading, please help!!

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: Multiple sleep issues, help prioritize!!
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2014, 12:36:26 pm »
Hi Linzee, welcome to BW! Sorry you've not had a reply until now.

I personally would work on getting him to sleep independently. This will mean bringing your MIL on board as well as consistency is key. I would try and use ssh/pat rather then go straight to pu/pd. I will post some links at the end for you to have a read through.

Do you have an idea of his awake times? Around this age average awake times are 2hrs but some can do more or less.

So, I would start with the first nap of the day. Create a wind down routine (I'm know that'll be difficult with a toddler around, but perhaps the MIL could help with the toddler instead?), top up feed if needed and try and place him in his bed awake. If he cries, use ssh/pat to settle him. Most people tend to get the best results with the first nap of the day that's why we suggest doing this one first. Wdyt? Worth a go?

Also, wrt to co sleeping, it's up to you. Tracy believed that we must start as we mean to go on. So if you're happy to continue for the long term then fine. If not, I would commit to only having him sleep in his bed. It will be tough hun, but here to hold your hand through out it all  :-*

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!

Starting EASY - all you need to know and more!

Shush-pat - How to

Introducing EASY to a 2nd child

P.s wrt to the noise waking him.. Have you tried a white noise machine or app on your phone? I've heard many people find this invaluable with a toddler running around x
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 12:42:44 pm by Kellyjs »



Offline Linzee602

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Re: Multiple sleep issues, help prioritize!!
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2014, 03:52:23 am »
Thank you so much for responding! I know I have way too much going on in this situation, and my older one slept so well so early, I never had to deal with any of this before!

I just so happened to start working on shhhh pat again for the 1st nap yesterday. I had him sleep on my bed though, on his belly because I knew I had the best chance and he really needed sleep. Guess what? It worked! He only lasted 20 minutes but it was time for him to eat again. The 2nd nap was a whopping 1.5 hours, followed by a 45 minute one closer to bedtime. Each time it took less ( mere minutes) time to get him down. Nighttime was another story. He went down in the crib on his belly with shhh pat after about 15 minutes. I just wasn't comfortable with him staying on the belly overnight so after an hour I decided to roll him over. Bad move. He woke up and would not settle after many tries, and then eventually started rooting. I could not take that chance of not feeding a possibly hungry baby so we nursed and then fell asleep together :( . Well I was afraid I undid everything but today's naps were similar, three in total, two separate hour-long naps and then 45 minutes in the evening to bridge the gap between afternoon and bedtime. He also fell asleep completely on his own in the stroller on the way back from the park (only for about 10 minutes). For his last nap, he was almost asleep from a top-up feed and i jostled him a bit to wake him up and he went in the crib on his side without a fight. Bedtime was a little more difficult. He went to sleep much earlier than usual, as I had my husband watch my toddler and begin his bedtime routine without me. I figured I could pop in for a goodnight kiss at the end if necessary. Well after about 45 minutes of shush pat, he is pleasantly sleeping on his belly for more than 2 hours now. I am just still deciding if I should try turning him again, or wait him out another hour or so to see if he wakes on his own and try to put him on his back after feeding. The way he smushes his face into the bed scares me and i think if I really can't get him on his back at night, I would buy a breathing monitor for the mattress before allowing him to stay.

I think the A time was definitely too long, although it was never consistent. The chart helped me confirm that and going forward I realize that 2 hrs is about the max. There were definitely times he went much much longer and thankfully I now have some kind of timeframe to go by. Thank you for posting that link!

I am optimistic because the small efforts already made such a difference. Next stop, moving all sleeps to crib and getting the night time sleep to go all the way through in crib without caving in!!

I also realized that with 3 naps, one falls during my toddlers nap time, so I only have to struggle with two for the day. When he was a newborn and sleeping more often it was much more of a challenge!

Thank you again for the reply!

P.S. I have a noise machine and it has improved the conditions but he still stirs at noises beyond the hum.

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: Multiple sleep issues, help prioritize!!
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2014, 18:06:30 pm »
I think that's amazing progress so far! Well done you!  :D

Tbh, I wouldn't worry too much about the feeding back to sleep after he wakes after BT. Night time has slightly different rules really. If you can get him to fall asleep independently for naps and at BT those sleepy night feeds won't be a problem at all.

That makes sense that the A time was too long before. An OT baby is very difficult to settle. I'd keep doing as you are for a few days and see if he settles even more into the new routine. Keep me posted x



Offline Linzee602

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Re: Multiple sleep issues, help prioritize!!
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2015, 02:35:02 am »
Hello, I'm back!!

I was on the verge of posting a great success story and have directed many of my friends to this website and to the BabyWhisperer books...unfortunately after many weeks of sleep training and days on end spent inside the house, revolving our whole lives (and our toddler's as well) around my baby's naps and sleep, we are in the midst of a relapse of sorts. Looking for some advice deciphering this and what to do!!

LO is now 7.5 months old. I want to say our new troubles began about 3 weeks ago, at the height of the holiday season. Previous to this, he was going to sleep at 7pm, waking at 11:30 for a feed, then sleeping until 5am, then feeding back to sleep until 7am. He was going on 5 months old when I wrote in to begin with and his awake time was no more than 2 hours. His EASY was dependent on what time he woke up and how long he slept for his naps (usually 3 naps, first 2 either 45 minutes or 1 hr 20 min, then a last cat nap between 20 and 45 minutes) For his naps he was going down without nursing, drowsy but awake, after a 5min wind down. At night he was nursing as part of the BT routine but not necessarily immediately before and was going down independently for the most part. We had used Shush-Pat to get to this point. Before BW we were a mess.

One evening (my first night out in months!) we left him with my mom and he woke unexpectedly less than an hour after BT. He was not easily settled by her and stayed awake until I was able to get back home and put him down by nursing him. No doubt OT at that point, he woke several times that night and started doing the same night after night, starting with right after bedtime. Well a few nights went by and he got back to sleeping until around 11 but every few nights he woke again and was not easily settled by shush pat or pu/pd. I can probably link the problem times to days where our schedule was off bc of the holidays and a few nights where he was awake way longer than he should have been before BT. We got back into the habit of feeding to sleep again and in efforts to break it again, began shush- pat and pu/pd combo a week ago. First night it took me 17 pu-pd's (about 1.5 hours) before he slept.
The middle of the night waking took 6 pu/pd's. The next night he went down in 5 pu/pd's. Then all hell broke loose. Three hours into pu/ pd the following night I gave up bc it was so close to his usual night feed, I just nursed him down. Since that night we have had the hardest time getting him down at bedtime. He will go down with a little parting, then wake less than 10 minutes later. He wakes frequently at night and no amount of pu/pd will work. After hours the other night I deduced he was hungry again bc it was close to 5am... He wasn't gone more than 5 hrs in a row...but I don't understand something. How can he settle himself for naps and in between sleep cycles SOMEtimes but not others? What I mean is, I watch him wake up and self settle through 2-3 sleep cycles and then by the 4th he is unable to? Also...I suspect bc he is becoming more aware he is too distracted during daytime nursing and is getting more milk at night . Another thing to mention is 1.5-2 months of obvious teething without a tooth in sight yet, and what seems to be separation anxiety, going on for the same amount of time. Although at his age his awake time should be about 3 hours (or more) he is barely getting in 2:15 and only sometimes bc I let it go that long trying to increase it a bit. He always seems tired earlier than 2 hours after naps  (sleep cues galore) even when he had naps over an hour long, but only visibly cranky between catnap and bedtime. Until yesterday he was still going down for naps independently but today I had to nurse him a bit because he just seemed hungry from not having good feeds. He takes a few tablespoons of solid food after every feed, no more bc he will just stop eating and grab for the spoon to bite and cry when I take it away.

What to do? Our nighttime routine is like it was when he was first born, with spending hours trying to get him to sleep only to be woken shortly after and through the night...


Offline Kellyjs

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Re: Multiple sleep issues, help prioritize!!
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2015, 17:21:45 pm »
Would you mind laying out your day for me in easy format hun?

So wu
E
A
S etc etc

I'm suspecting the 3-2 transition if you haven't gone through it already? All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

A definite need for increase in A times seems to be in order but once I see your day, I'll be able to advise better. ((Hugs)) in the meantime. NW's are tough, we've got them here atm with teething xx



Offline Linzee602

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Re: Multiple sleep issues, help prioritize!!
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2015, 04:23:06 am »
Thanks for responding, I have only just gotten around to laying this out because our days have only been getting worse!

This was our schedule up until a few days ago. We relapsed a few weeks ago with the nursing to sleep (result of a couple days being overtired from being off-schedule) so the night wakings have been more frequent than laid out here, however it had no bearing on the inconsistent nap lengths, as this has been an issue from the get go.


WU-7:00
E- 7:00/7:30 nurse and a few tablespoons oatmeal
A-
S- 8:30 or earlier we see sleepy signs. Stretch it till 9/9:30, at least 2 hours from exact wake up time.
E- 10:15/11:00, depending on how long nap was, nurse and a few tablespoons of oatmeal/veggie
A-
S-12:15/1:00 usually see sleepy signs by 12, regardless of morning nap length. Stretch awake time to be at least 2 hours from last wake up
E- 2:00/2:30 (afternoon nap used to be more likely to last full 1.5 hours)
A-
S-4:40 catnap for 20, 30, or 40 minutes
E-5:00/5:30 Dinner: Nurse and few tablespoons veggie/fruit/oatmeal Start seeing sleepy signs which last all     
    through dinner
A- Bathtime, bedtime routine
E-Nurse
S-7:00/7:30
E-11:00/12:00 Nurse
S
E-3:00am, 4:00am, or 5:00am Nurse

As for the past few days since the last post, all hell has begun to break loose with this schedule and he will only be settled by nursing or rocking, and will not go in the crib until completely asleep. I have taken to just holding/nursing him to sleep to get him caught up on some Z's and attempting to drop him in the crib only after 20 minutes or so. We still attempt bedtime at 7:00 and were using shush/pat and pu/pd but its to no avail. He just keeps getting more and more worked up, or if he does fall asleep, he only stays asleep for about 10 minutes. AND its taking so long that we are running into the 11:00 hour, which is when he usually eats again, SO once I nurse him at that point, he falls asleep for at least an hour, but usually 2-3 hours. I tried to re-introduce a bottle, but he wants absolutely nothing to do with it. I did this because I was suspecting that he wasn't nursing too well during the day, and if I could monitor how much he was eating I could determine whether he really needed 2 night feedings at this point.

Sorry you are also experiencing night wakings! Its so hard ;(

Offline Kellyjs

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Re: Multiple sleep issues, help prioritize!!
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2015, 19:12:19 pm »
Oh hun, we had such issues around the 8mo mark too.

I think you're going have to start not paying attention to these sleepy cues. At this age they do become really unreliable. 2hrs A is not enough at this age. 3hrs would be nearer. What I found at this age is that DD wants a radical jump in A too. Tbh she went from 2hrs 45 to nearly 4hrs in a month from now!

It is sounding like UT NW's too. How about looking at adding 15mins onto that first A for 2 days, holding, then doing it again?