3.5year old awake for hours at nights. Please help!

[QueenofHearts]

Hi!
This is my first post so i hope i can explain everything well. I have two children a boy 18months and a daughter 3.5 years old.

This post is about my daughter. She has always been a very good sleeper and has been sleeping independently since a very young age. She stopped having a nap a few months ago. When she first started dropping her nap, she would occasionally wake up at night but would usually go to sleep after a short time. But currently if she wakes up she'll be awake for any time between 2-4 hours. My son is going through the 18months regression and they share a room. So any time he wakes up she'll be awake too but for hours. Or a few times even if there are no disturbances she would just wake up!

She usually just plays around when she wakes up. We have a gro clock and she's very good at staying in bed till the sun comes out. But in the morning it is so difficult to wake her up and then she is extremely tired by bedtime the next night.

Usually at nights she's asleep by 8 and wakes up between 7.30-8. Sometimes at 7. I've always put her to bed at the exact same time everyday (i have crazy OCD 😳). Tonight she woke up at 1 and just fell asleep now, at 4.30am!

If anybody has any help, or any idea why this might be happening. Please help! I just hope that if i know whats causing all this i can help. Right now i am so sleep deprived and i have no idea what to do to fix it.
Thank you

[Truly Blessed]

Hello Honey,

Welcome to Baby Whisperer. ((HUGS)) those night waking's (NW) are long!  Can I ask how long she has been sharing a room with DS 

Do you think that sharing and him waking could be the whole problem, and she just isn't used to NW  Has she suffered from many NW in the past with a faster settling time 

Also can you tell me if there are any other external factors that may be affecting sleep. Home life changes, for eg: New home, new nursery etc, developmental leaps  Anything you can think of 

I'm guessing that before this she was managing  okay on 11 to 12 hours  Most LO's of her age would need approx 12 hours after dropping the nap, but it does vary, I remember DS dropping from 13 hours to 11 for a while a few weeks after dropping the nap, and we just had to ride it out.

One other thing to consider is that this is a half birthday regression. Many LO's go through it on the half year and birthday's, if that is the case then it will just pass.

Will your OCD allow you to give her some early nights to try and help her cope for now    (I hear ya Sister! lol)

And finally can you rule out pain from an ear infection for eg.

Sorry this is all questions, tends to be the way with the first reply. Oh, and extra (HUGS) for the 18 month regression palava, it's one of the worst, hope he's through the worst soon  .

x.

[QueenofHearts]

Hi again! Sorry for the late reply.

I recently bought a video baby monitor so that i can record what's happening at night and i just realised that so many nights she's awake n playing, n i dont even know! 

Thankfully we seem to have passed the 18 month regression with my son. So its definitely not him disturbing her. I've been logging her bedtimes etc. for the last few weeks and can't seem to find a pattern or reason. The last week has been:

27-01-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 12.30-2.30
Wu 8.15

28-01-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 8.45

29-01-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 12.30-5.00
Wu 10.15

30-01-15
Bt 8.30
Wu 7.30

31-01-15
Bt 7.00
Nw 3.15-5.15
Wu 9.30

01-02-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 7.45

02-02-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 7.45

03-02-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 3.45-6.15
Wu 8.15

Some nights she's been having such less sleep but i don't know what to do. I think this may have started when she dropped her nap. But i'm not sure.

Hope somebody can help...thank you x

[QueenofHearts]

Last night was:

Bt 7.30
Nw 3.15-5.45
Wu 8.15 (woken up)
ONS 10.25

I'm thinking of doing a 7pm bt tonight?

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

Wowzer! To be honest, the only thing I can say is that in order to keep any kind of routine you may be forced to wake her up at the same time each day, although I fully appreciate with such mammoth NW this is not easy. I am going to post on the moderator forum and ask for more eyes on this, as I need back up, but we'll try and figure it out together.

((HUGS))

x.

[jessmum46]

Huge hugs, those are some horrid NWs!

Going to just list some thoughts - she's an independent sleeper yes?  How do you respond at NWs?  Or do you even need to?

Is her room dark/quiet, no external noises could be disturbing her? (Apart from brother of course)

No reason for discomfort - teeth, ears, cough etc??

Developmental things - language explosion?  Learning new skills?  Change of environment?  Family stress or changes? 

Historically she's been a good sleeper - do you have a sense of low/average/high sleep needs?  How much sleep average in 24h was she getting with a nap?

Just looking she's averaging 11.5h total sleep right now on those days you posted.  I wonder if she's in an awful OT/UT loop going across 2-3 days?  I'm wondering if set BT and set WU time may be the way to go for her until things stabilise?  So set BT 8pm, wake her at 7.30/8am latest regardless of what happens during the night?

Thoughts??

[jessmum46]

Oh just one other thought - any blue light in the room from eg a clock?  Or does she spend any significant time with TV or electronic things eg ipad, phone before bed?

[QueenofHearts]

Thanks alot for your comments and help.

We turn off the tv or ipad before dinner so around 6 and then its bath time and time to get ready for bed. 
Just before dropping her nap she would have a 15minute nap in the afternoon and then 12hrs at nite. 8-8
We started cutting her nap because she was going to sleep later and later in the evening. She had a 15min nap for about 3 months before her nap was getting later and bedtime was then getting later too.

We live in a quiet area, so hardly any external noises. She has a bedside lamp, which isn't very bright.

We tried set BT and WU time, but after a few days it just made the NW worse. She would then wake up crying, and be up for even longer. I feel like she might be stuck in a loop but I don't know what to do.

I have it typed up already so thought i'll post this. It's everything since i started logging inc. the last few nights.

14-01-15
Bt 8.00
Nw 5.30-7.30
Wu 8.10 (woken up)

15-01-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 8.00

16-01-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 3.00-6.00
Wu 8.10 (woken up)

17-01-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 8.00

18-01-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 8.00




19-01-15
Bt 7.30
NW 4.00-6.00
Wu 8.15 (woken up)

20-01-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 8.00

21-01-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 8.00

22-01-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 7.15

23-01-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 7.45

24-01-15
Bt 8.00
NW 3.30-5.30
Wu 9.00

25-01-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 23.30-2.30
Wu 8.00 (woken up)




26-01-15 (was unwell)
Nap 2.30-4.00
Bt 9.00
Wu 8.00

27-01-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 12.30-2.30
Wu 8.15 (woken up)

28-01-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 8.45

29-01-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 12.30-5.00
Wu 10.15

30-01-15
Bt 8.30
Wu 7.30

31-01-15
Bt 7.00
Nw 3.15-5.15
Wu 9.30

01-02-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 7.45




02-02-15
Bt 7.30
Wu 7.45

03-02-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 3.45-6.15
Wu 8.15 (woken up)

04-02-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 3.15-5.45
Wu 8.15 (woken up)

05-02-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 5.30-7.00
Wu 8.15 (woken up)

06-02-15
Bt 7.00
Wu 7.15

07-02-15
Bt 7.30
Nw 1.30-5.00
Wu 9.00 (woken up)

Thanks again for taking the time out to help!

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

Without writing down the amount of sleep for each day, it does at first look seem like she is in an UT/OT loop and 'self regulating' day by day. I can only see this improving with a set WU TBH as hard as I know that is. Is there any way you could introduce a late cat nap of around 10/15 minutes on the days where she is really struggling, just as a interim solution 

x.

[jessmum46]

Yes I agree too, I see you've gone for waking her by 8am some days but BT has been 7-7.30pm in general. We'd suggested waking by 7.30/8am latest with an 8pm BT. So if you'd prefer 7.30pm then I would wake by 7am if no NW and 7.30am latest if you get NWs.  I know it's hard but with such long NWs I think this will get worse before it gets better.

[QueenofHearts]

Ok no problem i don't mind trying again. I think I wasn't very consistent with the set times in the past. But i'll try a lot harder this time. I just find it so hard when I know she's had a long NW

And sorry just to clarify would i give her a 15min nap if she had a nw the night before? And is 4 ok for a late nap? She finishes school at 3.30, the latest i could probably give her a nap is around 4?

[jessmum46]

My feeling would be give her a chance to nap on the way home from school but don't 'give' a nap as such, as in don't walk/drive out of your way to get her to fall asleep.  If she does doze off then yes wake after 15 mins otherwise push on through to bedtime.

[Truly Blessed]

My feeling would be give her a chance to nap on the way home from school but don't 'give' a nap as such, as in don't walk/drive out of your way to get her to fall asleep.  If she does doze off then yes wake after 15 mins otherwise push on through to bedtime.

Yes, this, and only if she's had a NW, not after a good night, just to enable the consistency. Good luck Sweetie, here to hold your hand.x.

[QueenofHearts]

Usually for a nap i would get her to lie down on the sofa for 15mins. 99% of the time she'll nap, i do have to bribe her though!

This is the last few days:

09-02-15
Bt 8.15
Nw 3.30-6.00
Wu 8.15 (woken up).       

10-02-15
Nap 4.00 (5-10mins)
Bt 8.30
Wu 8.15 (woken up)       

11-02-15
Bt 8.15
Wu 6.15

I'll try a nap again after school. And then bedtime at usual time.

[Truly Blessed]

Glad there's been 2 night of no NW's Hun, finger's crossed it all improves over the next few days. How was last night 

x.