Getting a 5 month old with multiple issues on EASY

[Surana]

Hi, hoping for some advice! Long post warning, although I'll try to be concise:) Also not sure if this is the right place for this post, please let me know if it's not!

I'd really like to get my DS on a more predictable daily pattern with fewer night wakenings, longer naps and more daytime feeding/less night-time feeding. I think EASY would really suit us, but I'm not sure what issues to tackle first (or if I should go all out) in order to get an appropriate EASY routine. We have an unpredictable day at the moment, which I know is all my fault and does not help DS at all, and the problem is because we don't have a predictable nap/eating schedule bed time is a little all over the place too. I've read the 'starting easy at 4 months and older' but am not sure whether this needs adjusting for us given there's a few issues going on. I also realise sometimes he's staying awake longer than he should (3 hours plus sometimes - I feel like such a bad mummy ) but it can be hard getting him to sleep earlier.

I kept a track of what happened over a couple of days but it's a lot, so to summarise this is what seems to be happening:
- He doesn't want to drink much at all in the mornings (as little as 2oz at a time), and is very much a snacker during the day. He wants bigger feeds in the evening, and multiple feeds in the night (some fair sized feeds, e.g. 6oz, although some of these are very small particularly in the later part of the night).
- I've just started weaning, he's happy to eat whatever time of the day and wants what I think is fairly large portions given he's just started
- I'm mix feeding but I don't produce a full feed (has been issues with breastfeeding from the start - hence mixed feeding rather than only BF) so I think this reinforces the snacking
- He wakes up every two hours in the night and wants dummy or milk. He doesn't need either when he actually falls asleep during the day but prefers it just before going down for his sleep, it seems to help settle him.
- His length of naps is unpredictable - usually either 30 or 45 mins, but one longer nap every day at present (over an hour). It varies when that happens.
- Because naps are unpredictable bed time moves about too. i aim for 8 but it tends to be between 8 and 9 when he actually gets to sleep (depends on when his naps have been during the day), and he almost always wakes up at least once not long after, usually half an hour later, usually wanting more food.
- I'm pretty firm about not getting up before 7am (I'm not naturally a morning person!), and usually he wants up between then and 7:15.

I'm happy to post an example of a day or two if it helps.

So I guess my question is, do I go all out and follow the instructions for the 'introducing EASY at 4 months and older' straight away; do I tackle cutting down night feedings first and getting him to drink more during the day (this has proved tricky so far); do I try and persuade DS first that he doesn't need dummy/milk around the time he goes to sleep (he's generally really quite insistent about that though); do I try and introduce a routine to the day first and deal with night wakings later, or vice versa; or do I try to cut down on the snacking so he has bigger feeds.

TIA x

[jessmum46]

Hi and welcome, hugs too!  This is definitely do-able but it will probably help to break it down into steps.

My suggestions would be:
- first start your day at a consistent time, so 7am seems like a good time based on what you've said
- aim for bedtime to be no more than 12-12.5h after WU time, so that means a 7-7.30pm bedtime.  If he is only sleeping 8/9pm to 7am at the moment, and that sleep is broken, he is almost certainly overtired and an earlier bedtime will help with that
- next I would work on spacing out daytime feeds, beginning with a feed at wake-up in the morning.  What's a typical time between feeds for him right now?  Say it's 2h, then next time try your best to distract him for an extra 5-10 mins then feed.  If he's a bit hungrier, he should take more, and then be able to last another extra 5-10 mins next time.  Some EBF babies won't manage 4h between feeds until they are on solids but given you are mixed feeding I would have thought you should be able to aim for 3.5-4h.
- then I would focus on getting his A times right.  This link may help: Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!! you'll know his A time is right when he goes to sleep relatively easily and sleeps for around 1.5-2h.  Getting A times right will also help you space out feeds - so if you feed at WU, do a good A time say 2h then he sleeps for 1.5h, it's already 3.5h between feeds and you can feed at WU - and then you have the EAS pattern
- from what you wrote I got the impression he can settle himself to sleep in the daytime, is that right?  If so then the final step would be to use shh pat/PUPD to work on some of those night wakings, but you may find that they improve somewhat anyway with sorting the rest of the routine out. 

What do you think?

[Surana]

Hi, thanks so much for the advice Yes that sounds great, few q's though - should I push back his bed time straight away or do it gradually, e.g. ten minutes earlier each day? Naps have been my biggest barrier to getting a consistent bedtime, so for example the other day he did (after 7:20 wake up) 8:45-9:25; 11:30-12:10; 2:10 to 3:10, then straight back to sleep until 4:20 after having a feed, but the next day he did (after 7:15 wake up) 9:35-10:55; 12:30-1:05; 3:30-4:10; 6:10-6:45. If his sleep's all over the place it's tricky getting a consistent bedtime, iyswim? what if he wakes from a nap at say 4, do I push his waking time to 7, even when it's really quite long, or have a short nap in there which then risks him not being tired enough at 7/7:30? Also do I feed straight after wake up if the nap has been short or focus more on stretching between feeds, not paying too much attention to when that is in his routine?

DS can get to sleep without feeding or dummy but wants it just before getting to sleep. He often insists on getting a dummy at least and sometimes spits it out as he goes to sleep, sometimes not. So I'm not sure if sucking/feeding is a sleep prop or simply a way he tries to soothe himself to the point he can get to sleep. He seems to want one or the other when he wakes up at night but he might just simply see that as his routine perhaps. My DH has a number of health conditions and needs his sleep so I got into the habit from the start of feeding DS when he woke up in the night as that was the easiest way to get him back down, but I think I'm paying for that now. He's never slept long stretches, 5 hours at the very most a handful of times.

Thanks again

[jessmum46]

I'll try to answer your questions - apologies if I miss anything

I think you could probably try moving bedtime fairly quickly - if it appears not to work then you can always try again with the slower approach of 10 mins earlier every day or couple of days. 

Personally speaking, rather than letting naps dictate bedtime I would have a bedtime in mind and wake from the last nap of the day if needed to stick to that bedtime, within about a 30 minute window.  At this age unless all naps are very short really you only want three naps in the day, so if the stretch from waking up from nap 3 is too long to make 7pm, then you could allow either a very short catnap of 15-20 mins and a slightly later bedtime if needed, or skip the catnap and shoot for an early bedtime instead.

I would not feed on waking from each nap if naps are generally quite short.  I would aim first of all to get the feeds stretched out and not worry if some parts of the day look more like AEAS. 

It does sound to me like the dummy/feed could well be a prop actually.  In which case you need to decide what you want to do about that.  It's fine to keep the dummy if you want it, as long as you accept that you may need to get up and replug it for him during naps and nighttime until he is developmentally able to do it for himself (around 8 months plus).  It means you would need to stick with shh pat for settling/sleep training rather than PUPD though.  You could keep the dummy but get rid of the feed before sleep, for naps at the very least.  Or you could choose to get rid of both and use a combination of shh pat and PUPD. 

I have fed both my LOs before bed and had different experiences of how nights were affected.  DD fed until asleep/very drowsy for several months but it never caused night wakings or a dependence/prop.  DS would usually feed but go down fully awake, however he was the one who developed some habit night feeds.  I'm happy to share how we got rid of those, however he was going down fully independently for naps and at bedtime before we did so that would probably be something for you to focus on first.

[Surana]

Great, that's really helpful I managed to get DS to sleep at 7:30 last night with very little protest, but we had two issues - first, which he always seems to have no matter when his bedtime is, is waking up half an hour later, usually wanting a substantial feed (either spending quite a bit of time BF or taking maybe 5 or 6oz from the bottle). Is this him cluster feeding or a symptom of over tiredness do you think? Should I be feeding or trying to get him back down without a feed? He also woke up at 6am and was not wanting to go back to sleep, dummy and feeding made no difference. As he was only grumbling rather than getting upset I didn't give him much interaction apart from offering a dummy from time to time, and turning on the soothing nature sounds setting on his lightshow toy (no lights). Should I be doing sh/pat or pu/pd, should I bring back his first nap time when this happens or keep it where it will hopefully be in the longterm to get him into a routine, and could this be him indicating he's not ready to spend the full 12 hours in bed yet? Although he was yawning pretty much from when we got up at 7. Sorry, loads of q's! He only took literally 1oz of milk (reluctantly) when he woke up but will try to persevere with spacing out feeds

Thanks again for your time and advice

[jessmum46]

WU 30 mins after bedtime is usually due to OT in my experience.  If you've fed him at bedtime I would try to get him back down without a feed, he shouldn't be waking from hunger if you've fed 30 mins previously and cluster feeding is more of a newborn thing really.  The 6am WU was probably OT too - 10.5h is a fairly classic OT night length.  I would actually just ignore him at that time unless he is really needing you and not go to him until a reasonable WU time.  There are two ways to think about the first nap - the 'tough' way is not to offer a nap until the time he would have had it based on an ideal WU.  This can be hard work but it can work to convince his body clock to go back to sleep when he wakes early.  The other approach is to allow a nap after a normal A time, so say A is usually 2h first thing with an ideal WU of 7am - using the first approach you would keep him up until 9am regardless of WU time, the second way you could put him down at 8am from a 6am WU.  The key to the second approach is making sure your first A time is age-appropriate as keeping too-short a first A will perpetuate the early starts.  So you would be wanting to get that up to 2h30-3h by around 6 months.  Personally I did the first approach with DS and it did sort him out to wake later quite quickly, though some days were VERY grumpy.