Trying to remove BF and stroller props via shush pat for naps mainly - help?

[Helen O]

Hi All, I wonder if you would be able to provide me with some advice please?

My DS is 12 weeks old. We’ve just started EASY today, as we would like to get him into a routine, increase his total sleep time, and remove the sleep props so that he will be able to sleep independently.

Naps are the area where there is most difficulty sleeping right now, so hence why I’ve posted in Naps section.

I’ve written below:
-   our experience of shush pat today
-   our questions

USING SHUSH PAT TODAY
We’ve tried three times today so far for naps with shush pat. We’ll try again later for bed time.

The first time he cried the whole time (mantra and proper cry) - the shushing and patting would not calm him – neither in the crib nor on the shoulder. He will not settle on the shoulder, even before today, but we tried anyway!  We stopped after 45 minutes as we saw that was recommended, and knew he must be hungry. I then fed him and tried to catch him before he fell asleep while BF, but I didn’t. So he fell asleep while BF. He did open his eyes when being put in the crib, but don’t think he really woke. He then slept for 40 minutes in the crib.

The second time the only way we could calm him is by holding him facing forward and walking around the room and shushing. This also made him very drowsy. Tried a few times to put him in his crib while drowsy and he cried. Finally got him into the crib very drowsy / close to sleep, continued shushing and rubbing his tummy (as he sleeps on his back) he fell asleep for 40 minutes.

The third time – held him facing forward and walking around the room and shushing. When he got drowsy, we tried many times to put him in the crib but he just cried. Also tried to settle him in the crib but he just cried (not a mantra cry, proper cry) and wouldn’t settle, so went back to walking around the room and shushing. In the end he wouldn’t settle at all even walking around and shushing, his crying got worse, and we stopped after an hour as it was time to feed. This time took him downstairs and into the light to feed and he stayed awake – in fact he seemed wide awake even while feeding, maybe it was a second wind!

QUESTIONS

1.   Will walking around the room and shushing, then putting him in the crib drowsy and shushing to sleep, achieve the same outcome that shush / pat is trying to achieve?
2.   Do we try to extend his naps already, or just get him to nap on his own first?
3.   We’re very worried that the process of trying to get him to nap as above without the props, will end up giving him negative associations with our room and his crib where he sleeps at night (and where we’re trying to get him to nap), and that in the end, his night time sleep, which we are happy with, will end up suffering. Has anyone a similar experience? That is, where the night time sleep is good, but use props for naps, and then try and remove the props via shush pat? Was there any impact on night time sleep?
4.   On the other hand, we are also concerned that if we don’t remove the props at nap time, that they could somehow end up ruining otherwise good night time sleep. What do you think?
5.   When he feeds during the night, given that his night time sleep is OK so far, do I need to stop him falling asleep while BF at night feeds for this whole thing to work, or can I continue to let him fall asleep while BF during the night feeds?

[lauradj]

Hi there!  Sorry for the slow response.  I'll try to answer all your questions.  Firstly, regarding the night feeds: it is completely fine to allow your LO to fall asleep on the breast.  Really, that's the ideal because it means he was only hungry and still wants to sleep.  Go with it. 
With any type of sleep training, the most important thing is consistency.  If you're not consistent in your approach, your baby will become confused as to what you're expecting him to do and will continue to cry until he gets what he needs.  If you're going to do Shh-Pat, you need to commit to it, for every waking (except at night, those are still from hunger).  For my DS1, he hated the patting so I did Shh-Rub on my shoulder (again, his preference and more comfortable for me).  This is what DH and I did every time he woke early from a nap and was unable to resettle himself.  DS2 preferred the pats on the bum and so that is what I did with him, again on my shoulder.  Tracy did not encourage walking around the room as she considered it a prop.  I admit I did rock back and forth while doing Shh-Pat with both boys but that's just something I automatically do when I'm standing at ease, whether or not I have a baby in my arms.     
It is unlikely your baby will develop negative associations with his bedroom because you're not abandoning him.  You are there, supporting him, and teaching him he can fall asleep on his own.  I wouldn't start Shh-Pat right away, I would lay him down drowsy and give him a solid 20 minutes to fall asleep before you go in (unless he starts to cry, obviously).  It can take babies awhile to fall asleep and to anxious parents it can feel like FOREVER!!!  Set a timer so you have an accurate idea of how long it's been. 
HTH!

[Helen O]

Hi Lauradj, thanks for your help!
Unfortunately we're stuck on actually getting him to go into the crib drowsy in the first place. He doesn't get drowsy without BF, being pushed in the stroller or being walked around, so we've tried a few times now walking him around the room (crying a lot, when he realises what's going on) and then waiting until he's drowsy and putting him in the crib.. as soon as we go to lower him into the crib he cries! 
We've tried going ahead and putting him in the crib anyway and settle him there, but he cries even harder and won't settle with shush / pat (or rub). We've only once got him to go into the crib drowsy (and whimpering) and fall asleep, but we think it's because he was so exhausted from the crying that he just gave up.
At night he is put in the crib asleep and when he wakes up hungry, he lays happily in the crib, chewing his hand and kicking, waiting to be picked up.. When he wakes up during the day (after being put in the crib asleep) he'll cry shortly after waking.
Quite lost as what to do next - might you have any suggestions please?

[lauradj]

If you could post your EASY that would really help.  It may be a matter of a simple tweak to your current routine.

[Helen O]

Hi Lauradj, thansk for your reply!
I'm afraid we still haven't managed to get on a proper EASY routine since trying to start on the weekend before last, so I'm afraid I can't even write it down, nothing has been the same each day for the past week and a half as his sleep has been all over the place - all of a sudden he's had extra night wakenings for no reason that's obvious to us (he used to sleep a stretch of 5 to 6.5 hrs, now he wakes up suddenly once before midnight and an extra morning awakening),  it's been really difficult to get him to nap (even using any and every prop under the sun just to try and just get him to sleep, as we stopped shush pat for the moment), and he was really resisting naps (in the crib, on us, in the stroller..), so he's been very overtired as a result.
Yesterday wasn't as bad for naps as previous days - I fed him a little more as he still seems hungry after his feed (so I did EAEAS rather than EAS as I can't BF him enough in one sitting it seems) and we let him have the soother in the stroller to get to sleep. His 3 month growth spurt started yesterday.
I am still perservering with trying to get into an EASY routine at the moment anyway and I was aiming for an  EASY like this to start with, based on his current WU and bed times, and given that he still cluster feeds in the evenings. Would like to get his bed time to 19:00 eventually:
WU/E   09:00
A   09:30
S   10:30
E   12:00
A   12:30
S   13:30
E   15:00
A   15:30
S   16:30
E   18:00
A   18:30
E   19:00
S   19:30 CN
E   20:15
S   21:00
I've noticed yesterday and today that he often doesn't show tired signs until a little after 1.5hrs A time - and if I bring him out in the stroller then, he's asleep in 10 to 15 minutes, so almost 2 hrs awake time. So should my A time be more like 1.75 hrs rather than 1.5 hrs ? Does that sound right? He's 14 weeks old tomorrow.

[lauradj]

Hey there!  I'm sorry you're feeling so frustrated!  If your LO is going through a growth spurt, it's not a huge surprise that he's waking for a night feed and needing more throughout the day.  These additional feedings should pass when the growth spurt is over.  Is it possible he's ready for an A time push?  At 4 months, many babies are awake for 1hr and 45mins, perhaps he's just ready a little sooner?  If he doesn't seem tired at nap time, that may be the case.  If you are truly determined to rid yourself of the props, I think you and DH will have to sit down and agree to a course of action and really stick with it.  The problem lies in choosing to do something and then giving in and going back to the previous method.  Baby gets confused as to how they can best fall asleep.  If Shh-Pat doesn't for you, perhaps you could just hold him on you shoulder and rub his back?  Some babies don't like the Shhhh sound.
Your proposed EASY looks just fine.  I say go for it!  FWIW, my LO also likes to try and fall asleep in the stroller and he's almost 7 months.  I have to go on brief walks with lots of stops to make him look at things, otherwise I see the blank stare and I know he's about to drift off.  Very frustrating but, c'est la vie! 

[Helen O]

Thanks for your help and encouragement on this one!  :)Ended up waiting, working on his routine for a while and trying PU/PD (as we just couldn't get him to settle with shush pat or run) and am really delighted at how well it has worked so far (day 3)..touch wood! 

[lauradj]

Hurray!  That's wonderful news!  Keep up the good work and fingers crossed for smooth sailing