Major problems implementing plan

[snation88]

Ok, here's a little background:

LO is six months old just last week. For her entire life she has done a combo at night of sleeping in the bassinet (until she got too big, then it moved to the PNP) next to our bed. After she woke up anywhere between 11:00 and 2:00 she would get into bed with me and nurse as she wanted. She nurses to sleep and we start bedtime at 7:00. We do a bath and then lotion. We used to swaddle but after she started rolling back to front we switched to a baby merlin's magic sleep suit. After she's in her suit I would nurse her to sleep and then transfer her to her bed. Sometimes this took multiple attempts because she would wake up when I laid her down and freak out.

This has been acceptable. I don't mind night wakings-I'm SAHWM so while I still have to work, I can work in my PJ's all throughout the day, and what I would usually do is do 75% of my work during her naps.

And then the naps. just. stopped. And it got to where she would only nap if I nursed her down and napped with her. Previously she was napping in her swing quite well-normal naps from 1-2 hours. Then they just stopped. I cant reiterate how random it was. They just. freaking. stopped.

And of course when the naps stopped, the night time sleep got worse and worse and worse. And even with it getting worse I still didn't mind because with the cosleeping it wasn't that hard on me, but I know that for her to develop appropriately neurologically, she needs daytime and nighttime sleep. We tried CIO for a nap today for all of seven minutes before I could not take it anymore. So I researched and came upon babywhisperer. I researched carefully and we tried tonight. We did a bath and I nursed her but kept her awake. Then we put her in her sleep suit and got her calm, and laid her in her bed, and she started to bawl. And my husband tried and tried and tried. Picking her up, putting her down, over and over. Finally it got to where she just wouldn't calm down even when she was picked up, by me or by him. After an hour and forty five minutes I did nurse her again because I was afraid she was hungry. She nursed but I made her stay awake. Then I put her in her bed and she sobbed for about 45 seconds and knocked out. I think she just passed out from exhaustion.

This doesn't feel right and I feel like we are doing something very wrong. I just want what's best for my sweet girl. Can anyone assist?

[Kellyjs]

Hi and welcome. I'm so glad you found us rather than going down the CIO route  . We'll never suggest that here.

Would you mind posting what the last day looked like in real time? So wu time, E times, what times you're trying for a nap, all the way to BT and any night wakings (NW's). I have a little feeling something might be a little off with your routine, so I'm sure we can help there.

Wrt the feeding to sleep, it sounds like that's something you want to stop too? We can definitely come up with a plan for that as well, but we do need to check out the routine if order for anything like pu/pd to work. Look forward to hearing from you xx

[snation88]

I didn't really start keeping track until today because she had been so unpredictable, so here's today:

She woke up at 7:00. I got her out of bed and we nursed and cuddled in my bed until about 7:30. Then I got up and changed her and we played on her playmat while I pumped. Then we played various other games until she was starting to get fussy at 8:45. I put her in her swing to nap (I know that's not recommended, but I'm trying to tackle nighttime sleep first) and she was out by 9:00 am. She woke at 9:40ish but went back to sleep within ten minutes with no crying. She stayed asleep until about 10:20. Then I got her up, nursed her a little (she wasn't super hungry), changed her, and we played in her jumperoo, on her playmat, and with her stacking cups. We nursed again because she was hungry again around 12:15. Around 12:30 we took a bath together which she LOVES. Then we read two stories and I put her down for a nap at 1:10. She slept until 2:30. It's now 4:30 our time and she's been up and playing. she has eaten a few times since her last nap. She's not ready yet it seems to switch to just a few feedings a day. Soon we'll go to the grocery store. At 7:00 she'll get her bath (she just sits in the water when she takes one with me, i pull her out and put her in a bouncy seat next to the tub when I actually use soap and shampoo), I'll nurse her, and then read her a story or two and we'll try the PU/PD method again around 7:30 and hope that it goes better!

For the record, she slept for five hours straight last night which is basically a miracle. My husand tried PU/PD several times and she started crying in earnest, so I nursed her but kept her awake and put her down awake. She fussed, so I did PU/PD maybe three times and she settled. When she woke again three hours later we did the same, except when it was all said I done I didn't have to PU/PD at all. She went down awake and was asleep within minutes, so that was good!

[snation88]

And yes-we're trying to get her off of the nursing to sleep because she's completely dependent on it. I have to be so careful to transfer her to her bed because she'll wake up and I'll have to go through nursing and transfer two or three times! She will only sleep in her bed if she's put in it asleep. That's why we arrived at trying PU/PD.

[weaver]

Hey there, you know you can still hold her til she's calm and drowsy and then put her down, and work from there to getting her into the cot awake.  That might be an easier transition for her from feeding to sleep.  What can also help is keeping your hands on baby after putting her in the cot, so the release of pressure from being held isn't so sudden.   

She went down awake and was asleep within minutes, so that was good!

Great!

[snation88]

Thank you for that-we've done some of this and it has helped. we went from it taking an hour and forty five minutes of PU/PD the first night to less than thirty minutes the second night. However she woke up A TON last night and eventually out of exhaustion I accidentally kept her in bed with me. Luckily it was only the last hour or so of sleep so it wasn't all night, but it was a rough one for sure. I woke up and the house was freezing. We've been having these balmy afternoons but cold nights and mornings, and we forgot to turn the heat on last night. She sleeps in a baby merlin suit, but the feet and hands are open on it, so i bet the poor thing had cold feet

Anyway, we will press on tonight! I am curious about night wakings-eventually of course I want her to sleep through the night, but for now I think it would be too traumatic to not nurse her when she wakes-would you more experienced ladies here agree? And if so, should I try to keep her awake while she's nursing or with night wakings is it okay if she nurses to sleep?

[Kellyjs]

It's ok, there's always blips in the road  . This is a journey for you both.

Anne has made a great point there, do you think that's something you could work on?

Ok, I just want to write out what your day looked like in easy format as it's easier to read..

So wu 7
E
A 2hrs
S 9- 10.20 (awake for 10 mins at 9.40)
E small feed
A 2hrs 50
S 1.10- 2.30
E
A 5hrs
E
BT 7.30

Ok, from that I can definitely see where the issues lie in that that's far too long of an A to BT. We have to shift your day and lessen that significantly. We can do this by extending the first A as that's rather short and maybe even the second one a touch. Do you still offer a CN at all and I've just missed it out?

We can fix this. If we get her on a decent routine I know the NW's will get better and we can work on the self setting from there. But she does need to be on an age appropriate routine that suits her first. They will work in tandem. It'll just take a little bit of time ok as I don't want to push her too hard too fast, but we need to figure out what to do about that last. A time. Will she take a quick 20mims CN at 4.45/5? Xx

[weaver]

If she's exclusively BF then looks to me like she is not getting enough feeds during the day. It might be just the way you explained it but for example my two at that age would have had a big feed every four hours (prob both sides, took them about 15-20 mins, but every baby is differbt) as well as an optional top up feed a short time before naps, and a DF at 10.30pm.  If she's not getting enough calories in the day, she will look for them at night. So you may wish to look at upping her intake in the day, and that in itself may cut NWs. As I say every four hours for a big feed, roughly, and maybe the odd snack. 

[snation88]

Oh yes, I do know that that first A is too short. I try to extend it every day I swear, but she gets so, so fussy if I make her stay up. Should I just deal with the fussing and possibly crying to try and extend her awake time before a nap? I'm so crying aversive-that's how I ended up in this nursing to sleep situation in the first place! I forgot to say that she did get a cat nap in on the way to the grocery store-probably about 30 minutes yesterday from 5-5:30, so she wasn't up for that whole five hours. And she nurses on demand all day long basically. I can sometimes get her to take a long feed and then she won't eat for three or four hours, but often I can't and I would love tips on how to get her to eat more at a time so that she's nursing less instances during the day. The little thing is quite persistent and tugs at my shirt and starts sucking at my shoulder! We're doing BLW so she is getting some solids but not a ton yet as she is just in the exploration phase right now. She did eat a bit of broccoli tonight so that was exciting!

Today because her sleep was so awful last night she napped four times for about 45 minutes-1 hour each time. Again, I know not optimal, but these babies I tell you-they have a mind of their own! I think I was trying to tackle too much at once so tonight in an effort to help her get good night sleep I'm going to not hesitate to nurse her back down if she wakes up. Last night she was up so much and we were both zombies all day long. and with the holidays coming up I'm concerned. We'll be at my mothers on Christmas eve until about 10:00 I'd guess-way past her bedtime, so we're bring her PNP that she sleeps in to my moms and we're going to do her bedtime routine there, but I'm concerned that with the foreignness she may really want to nurse to sleep out of comfort. Any tips on how to handle this? If we break our sleep training that one night will we be starting from scratch when we're back at our house the next night?

[Kellyjs]

The 45mins naps are indicative of UT I'm afraid and a need to extend the A times. I too got stuck in this loop as DD had developed a learned time of going to bed. Ours too was stuck at the 2hr point I seem to remember. Once they do get used to it, you'll probably find it'll end up being closer to 3hrs once we finish the process!

The problem with UT naps is that if they don't get enough A time during the day, all these UT naps actually lead to OT by the end of the day hence making BT and NW's worse.

I hate crying too, but if you could try and extend that first A by 15mins for now, I do think it'll get her out of this learned time of wanting a nap. It will be the most difficult. I used to just do something low key like carrying her around the house, pointing out things, a mirror usually did the trick too as did a change of scenery. Yes, she used to grumble, but it wasn't too bad after a day or so. Then I found I could extend again after 3days without too much bother again. I won't lie, that last 15mins is more hard work than the rest of the A time, but we really do need to better balance your day for you.

Tbh if I were you, I would try and sort the day time sleep first and get her on a reasonable routine, then maybe we can tackle the NW's after? There will be fewer of them once we sort the A time anyway and if you do have a prop for NW's we can come up with a plan for that later. I just think it'll be too much doing it all at once won't it? Xx

[snation88]

I believe we're on the same wavelength, because I worked hard to extend her A length time today. I figure fifteen minutes every few days and I'll have her to three hours in no time- today I got her to 2:15 a time by getting in the tub with her when she started to fuss-the tub is ALWAYS a winning strategy. After that she took a two hour nap! She would have gone longer but I know that can be just as bad as not sleeping enough.

Unfortunately with the holidays the whole thing is about to go to  for a few days, but we'll do our best to get it back on track. I'm going to try to be flexible with her as much as possible these next few days while still trying to maintain some semblance of a schedule. Oh Christmas! You wonderful, horrible beast!

[Kellyjs]

Please don't worry about it. What I have found during these crazy holiday times is that they surprise you, in a good way. Just be as flexible as can be and remember she may get overstimulated. Not the end of the world and everything can be fixed once things settle down.

Amazing news about the nap! That's exactly right, we don't want to extend too much too soon as it's a lot to take for a LO. We like to extend by 15mins hold for a few days then look at extending again. Good call about the bath! Have a great Christmas and check back in with me after ok? It's a good idea to keep a rough log about what happens at Xmas and sleeps if you can remember because as I said, we lose track of time sometimes then realise they can cope with a lot more than we give them credit for. It'll give us something to work on after the holidays xx

[snation88]

OH goodness. Tonight was just awful.

It's the first night really back on the plan after the holidays. We had a big christmas party last night and she went to bed three hours late last night after being way overstimulated, so her naps were all over the place. I'll try to do an EASY chart as best I can for today:

7:15 Wake up/Eat
7:30 Activity
8:30 Sleep
9:30 Wake Up/Eat
9:35 Activity
1:30 Eat/Sleep
2:30 Wake up
2:30 Activity
4:30 Sleep (car nap)
5:00 Activity
6:45 Bedtime Bath-then Eat, Then Storytime
7:20 We began Pu/PD

She sobbed and sobbed and sobbed for TWO. HOURS. Finally around 8:40 I nursed her again thinking she was hungry. She ate a little but when I did PU/PD again after that she sobbed every time I put her down, would fall asleep almost instantly when she was picked up. I really feel awful. I feel like i'm doing something terribly wrong. I know her schedule was just terrible today but I figured it was partly at least because she stayed up so late last night at the party. I just don't know what to do at this point. I feel like an awful mother.

[weaver]

You'll need a few days to get back to normal, hun, that's a pretty late BT for her, so just cut her (and yourself!) some slack.  And keep in mind it'll take a few days to get back into 'normal'.

[Kellyjs]

^^ just as Anne said. Keep in mind that is a late BT, so it was to be expected really. Fingers crossed for a decent day for you tomorrow xx