Long night WU

[Lollipop86]

Hi.

I am a mom of 7 month (4,5 month corrected age) DD. We try to be on easy routine but it is not a rule. DD has slept quite well until recently. She has two longer naps (1,5-2,5 hours and 1-1,5 hours) and a CN about 0,5 hours. She WU twice to BF and went right back to sleep.
She does not self soothe yet. This is because of several reasons:
#1 she is a preemie (we did kangaroo care, she is pretty much only used to me, I have her in my arms a lot during the day because of physiotherapy reasons)
#2 I have a 3,5 old DD who has also recently become jelous therefore I have to be with her as much as I can
#3 I have gone soft
So at night she falls back to sleep on the breast and for the naps and BT I carry her around in the dark and sometimes do ssh/pat sometimes I sing to her. I've swaddeled her until yesterday but as she unswaddeled herself almost every time I assumed she has had enough.  Sometimes she is up for 2,5 hours sometimes only 2 hours. Especially in the morning when she is tired from the NW. If I put her in the stroller she falls asleep and sleeps up to 3 hours (usually 2) and if I put her down in the crib she WU a few times due to her hands all over her face or because of her pacifier falling out. Usually it helps if I put the paci back in and hold her shoulder for some time.

But for the last few days she WU at night and can not fall back to sleep. She is like an owl! Or sometimes she sleeps for a few minutes and then wakes up. This happens at about 12.30-1.30 am and then sometimes at about 3-4 am and then again at 5-6 am. I don't get up then but I put her back down and she sleeps until about 7.15-7.45 am. I BF her every time.

There is nothing going on in out day routine.She is not on solids yet. Not a sign of teeth. Maybe it is a phase. I've tried to carry her around tonight but she started crying and arched her back. Then I BF her and left her in my bed. She fell back to sleep but only for a short time.

So what to do?

[Lollipop86]

Just an update on last night.
I have found that if I BF her and put her straight to bed she will sleep for 15 mins and then she will WU as good as new. That happened yesterday evening at 7.30 pm. Then she fell back to sleep at 9.15 after a few attempts to put her down, exhausted from crying and on my breast. She WU at 00.30 am for BF and again at 2.50 am. I did not BF her then, just walked with her and she fell asleep without crying. When I put her down her paci fell out and she woke up. From then on it was more drama. I tried to walk with her again but she started to cry and yell. Then I BF her again and she fell back to sleep but WU when I put her in the crib - all cheery. She talked to herself and called for me once in a  while... but I left her because she wasn't crying to see what would happen. This went on and on for more than half an hour. She got quieter so I thought maybe she will fall asleep but that didn't happen. I had enough at about 4.30 so I swaddeled her and walked with her and she fell asleep calmly and slept until 7.50 am (now

We have physiotherapy now where she cries a lot every time so it should be fun! Usually she sleeps 3 hours afterwards...

[trimbler]

Hey there, you know I wonder whether you're hitting that tricky 4mo phase now, since that's her corrected age? Usually involves a growth spurt (hence wanting to feed more at night?), wonder week (lots of developmental stuff which can interfere with sleep), increase in A times during the day (has this happened recently? Your A times look pretty normal but of course these LOs are all different...), and a big sleep regression, which can often be the time when props that previously worked well, start becoming a problem, if they can't settle themselves back to sleep between sleep cycles.

So... Does this sounds like what might be going on here? Please could you post your daytime routine together with timings of what happens at night - one specific day would be helpful, but of course mention if any part of it is untypical. How would you feel about some gentle sleep training? Obviously nothing to do with CC/CIO, you know we wouldn't advise that here, although of course it will usually involve some crying, maybe even a lot, but with you right there with her. You may find that now is actually a good time to start, however I realise you have other factors to consider and I don't know how her physio needs affect how and where she needs to sleep during the day? You may find that you can just concentrate your sleep training at night, if she needs to be in  a particular sleeping position during the day, since it seems to be the nights which are most difficult right now? Wdyt?

[Lollipop86]

Trimbler thank you.

I think maybe it really might be a growth spurt. Yesterday she was very nervous again on the breast - like it was not enough milk or the flow not fast enough for her. That led to not drinking enough and BF every two hours. So the schedule was quite off. But not so much the sleep part. Also the development. I think it is going fast now - every day she is more mobile and producing more sounds. I stopped swaddeling her yesterday because I thought she has had enough (she managed to get her hands out if she was not swaddeled properly and she put them in her mouth and also she sometimes cried a lot when I started to swaddle her). But when I swaddeled her back at night and today for the second nap she was quickly calm and fell asleep fast. What do you think - is it OK to still swaddle her at this age?

Increase in A times during the day - what did you mean by that? That A times should be increased and the baby does not cope with it at first?

As for sleep training - I did it already with my first DD (maybe I am destined to have babies with sleep issues  so I know it involves crying. But I don't know - is it because this one is a preemie and I've really gone soft or because I am a very impatient person (also my DH is) but when she starts crying I automaticly soothe her as best as I can. So I am quite scared of sleep training...

The physio - we have sessions once a week but at home it is basically just handling the baby. When you have her in your arms and when you change clothes and diapers. She is not allowed to be on her tummy yet. But I find it that she does not like it if I put her on her tummy to sleep - she is not used to it. (My first DD was a tummy sleeper which I found it better because she didn't wake herself up as much) I put her on her side to sleep. If she rolls onto her back she does not sleep so good.

I will post one day routine but maybe tomorrow's because Thursdays ahe all differrent dut to physiotherapy. Today she slept for 4 hours afterwards! I know this is not recomended but I left her anyway because of the poor night.

[trimbler]

Totally ok to continue swaddling at this age, with the exception of babies who can roll, as that's unsafe. Pretty common too, to get arms loose, you never know, perhaps one day he'll get them out and use them constructively, to self soothe...

Sorry, I just meant that many LOs need their A times increased during the day at this age, otherwise they end up with too short naps, or perhaps UT NWs. But yours are already average to long, presumably he seems to be coping with them ok?

With ST - definitely soothe her when she cries, but then put her down again but only do this when you're all ready, if you don't feel it's the right thing for now then don't do it - it won't work if you're not really committed to it so then you'll cave in and have had all the crying for nothing. So don't let anyone pressurise you to do it until you're really ready I hesitate to recommend this as I don't have first hand experience, and from what I've heard it can be quite frustratingly slow, but with those caveats in mind, have a read of this as an alternative to PUPD etc, something else to consider, perhaps? Gentle Removal Plan

[Lollipop86]

Hi.

So - we have had a few "calm" days with a special focus on e.a.s.y. routine. And even though I've started feeding her solids the issue of NW sorted itself out. But I did start to swaddle again - it seems to really calm her down. I will post our e.a.s.y.

BT 8 pm
E 0.30 am  and  2.30 - 3.30 am (I don't know what happened here anymore..)
WU and E 6.45 am
S 9.15  - 10.45 am
E BF 10.50 am  SOLIDS 11.30 am
S 12.45 pm - 2.15 pm
E 2.30 pm
S 4.45 - 5.45 pm
E 5.45 pm  and  7.30 pm

BT 8 pm
E 0.30 am  and 4 am
WU 7.40 am
E 8 am
S 10.05 am - 12 am  (in stroller)
E BF 12.15 pm  solids 1 pm
S1.50 pm - 3.15 pm
E 3.15 pm
S 5.15 pm - 6.05 pm
E 6.15 pm  and 7.30 pm

BT 8 pm
E 0.30 am  and 2.30 am (I went out to mend first DD and she woke up)
she WU cheerful before 6 am (I don't know when because I was sleeping so deeply) and at 6 am I BF her
WU 8 am
... 

Also for the naps she is usually quite tired so I can put her down almost instantly. For BT I've also tried to put her down before she fell asleep as she was fussy in my arms. She started fussing in the crib and when I turned Shaun The Sheep on white noise she quickly soothed, went quiet and fell asleep. I've done this for three days now and it seems to be working. I hope it will in the future too  

Thank you for the advice on ST. I agree it doesn't work if you're not up for it. But now that I see she is not so "difficult" I am stronger again

[trimbler]

So glad to hear things are on the up thanks for sharing! Well done on working out what she needs I have to apologise, just noticed in my last post I kept switching between he/she - not sure what I was thinking! 4mo is often a tricky time, so it really is great news if you're through that 'hump' already yes I know, adjusted age, just assuming that's the relevant one to use when it comes to sleep. Hope things continue to go well now, just remember at this age it still changes pretty quickly, so be ready

[Lollipop86]

Thank you!

About that he/she - no problem 
I also think that corrected age is more appropriate for her. She is "ahead" with certain things but otherwise 4-5 months is her age (at her age her sister was crawling already and she is not even turning yet).
We have some wierd nights now but it is not that frustrating. She mostly has EW now. At about 6 am. I wait for some time to see if she could go back to sleep but if not I BF her and we get up. Ba that time my older DD WU and it is no use - she would WU little one anyway I try to have her up as long as possible after that.

I hope thing continue to go well. Otherwise I'll be in touch

[trimbler]

Hope so too Just keep an eye out for signs that A times are ready for another push...

[Lollipop86]

Hi again.

I was afraid this would happen and it did... The LWs are back! And I feel it's getting worse.

For the last3 or 4 days she has been WU again and being cheerful and chatty. I've really tried to have the daily routine in order and to keep her awake until her really sleepy cues. But because of the prolonged naps due to NWs we ended up without a CN. And because of our routine with the older DD and because we are really not used to putting them down at 6-7 pm I think she got OT. And it's getting worse. And I don't know what to do! Yesterday we tried to make a short CN because I went to pilates at 8 pm but DH said it was a disaster - both of them were havind trouble falling asleep. At night she was up from 0.40-2.40! And I tried everything. BF - carrying swaddled - carrying unswaddled - leaving hee in the crib with white noise - leaving her in the crib with music - sshing. After 2 hours I BF her again and she was so tired that she fell asleep. After 3 hours DH's alarm clock woke her up and I BF her again. She managed somehow to fall back to sleep on her own. She has just woken up - at 9.15 am. 

I really don't know what to do now!    And I also wonder - would it be better to change the crib for the bed now when things are messy anyway or to wait until we are back on track?

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) this can be such a frustrating time! Please could you post a couple of days/nights as this can really help to work out what might be going on? Bear in mind too that this is an age for big developmental spurts, which, whilst exciting, often play havoc with sleep Chatty wakings, especially in the early hours, are really common at this age - try to just leave her to it, whenever possible, it's good practise for self settling.

Not sure what you meant about a bed? Is that a cot bed?

[Lollipop86]

Sorry, yes a cot (I didn't look it up how you say it in English ). We have a crib now and she will soon be too big for it. We will change it for a cot of 120x60 cm. It will still be beside my bed.

OK I will post. But for the last few days I don't remember it is all blurry... So next few days

Today I tried to deal with her OT. She WU at 9.15, at 11.15 we went out and she slept in the stroller until 1.15 pm. Next nap was 3 - 3.45pm. And a CN 5.35 - 6.10 pm. So she didn't have a lot of A time today. I hope I did the right thing. At least I tried
For BT we went in the bedroom at 7.45 and she fell asleep at 8.15. She had a lot of trouble falling asleep. I did the carrying, ssh/pat in the crib, carrying again with white noise but then I had to almost jump with her to settle her down!  We will see how it goes from here.

Oh and I really think this is developmental. I just can't put my finger on what exactly. But when I look at her she seems like she is a 7MO trapped in a body of 5MO! She would like to roll over but she can only roll to the side. If I put her on her tummy (which I am not allowed btw) she moves likes she wants to crawl. It is quite frustrating even for me let alone her!

[trimbler]

Oh ok yes that's just a standard sized cot over here - some LOs use a 'cot bed' which is bigger and you can eventually remove one of the sides to turn it into a toddler bed, so I wasn't sure if that was what you'd meant.

Aw poor thing, I guess she's had 7 months of stimulation out of the womb, but as you say, physically she still needs her body to grow and catch up - she'll get there Actually mine were both a bit slow on their physical milestones (both overdue so no excuse there!) but I could see their frustration pretty clearly!

Well done on trying to get her caught up from the OT, hope she manages a good night! Yes just post routine in a couple of days or so, actually I won't get much chance to come on here now until Friday anyway, so no rush...

[Lollipop86]

Hi.
I started to write our routine down but then I tottaly lost track. So here is what I've got:
 BT 8.30
E 0.40 + NW until 2.40
E 5.45 (wu by alarm clock)
E 9.15
S 11.15-1.15
E 1.15
S 3 - 3.45
E 3.45
CN 5.35 - 6.10
BT 8.15
E 11.30, 2.15, 5.45 (WU by alarm clock)
WU 7.30
E 8
S 9.50 (wu after 45 mins - 11.10
E 11.30, 12.30 solids
S 1.20-3.30
E 4
CN 5.30 - 6
BT 8.20 (WU 3 times)
E 11.30, NW 2.15 (self soothed!), 4.15
WU 8.10
E 8.20
S 9.45 (after therapy) - 11-45
E 11.50, 12.30 solids

And than I forgot to write it further...  This was until Thursday noon.
But I can say that NWs are gone again except for the night from Saturday to Sunday when she got unswaddled at night and after BF I put her down unswaddled. She had so much to do with her pacifier that she was up for about half an hour and after that time I swaddeled her again, soothed har and she slept OK. Last night she slept pretty good - except for a few wakings in the first 45 mins after BT. (8 - 8.45). She WU only once for BF at 2.40 and then slept until 7 am.
Her naps are also getting worse - a lot of wakings and they are shorter - 1-1,5 hours. Which is also better because of the CN - we can do it without her being UT. And also I think she might have been UT at BT sometimes. Yesterday she was not fighting BT at all.

I hope you understand any of this - it is a bit confusing

So what do you think about bed-changing?
And also about putting my DDs in the same room? When?? First one is 3,5 YO.

[trimbler]

Hi there so glad to hear the NWs are better now Couldn't tell you why, since I can't see those days, but whatever you're doing, sounds like it's working well

You may find that now she's doing better nights, she could stretch her A times a bit further to get longer naps - ideally more than 1.5h. Wdyt?

On the move to her cot - I'd say pick a time when you have a bit more support (weekend, perhaps?) and go for it! Sounds like she'll have to move out of her crib soon anyway? Expect a few bumps, but with consistency she'll get used to it. I can't really comment on moving her into her sister's room - we still haven't done that at 20 months Our DD is a late teether and it's really affecting her at nights, she still has a long way to go and DS is quite a light sleeper, he already gets woken by her through the wall but probably not as much as he would if she were in his room... So I have no idea when she'll be out of our room For you, I'd seek advice from your doc, since I know SIDS guidance is to keep them in your room until 6mo, and she still hasn't reached that by adjusted age, has she?