Just turned 4 mo and 3-4 hr EASY transition

[sunny90]

So my 4 mo (turning 4 months tomorrow) has been having a 1.45 A time for the past few weeks, I find when I get him down on time for his nap he can stay asleep for longer. The problem is that A. his catnap is virtually impossible til close to 6 when it's too late as his bedtime is 7 and B. he still seems hungry at 3 hours but C. he can sleep past 3 hours feed once I get him through his hump of waking at 30-45 min (by rocking him in the buggy) but then obviously it throws the 3 hr schedule off and I'm trying to figure out a transitional  schedule or do I need to go straight to 4 hours?
This is his basic schedule.
E 700
A
S 845-9 ( he will wake up between 30-45 min later but then if I keep rocking him many times he'll go back to sleep)
E 10
A
S 1145-12
E 1
A
S 230 wake up between 3 and 315
E 4
A
S if he manages the catnap its between 530-6 and I only let him have 15-20 min max
A bath bedtime routine
E 7
wakes in the night between 130 and 430 (it varies) and then I just stick him on and nurse him and fall back asleep, he wakes up between 530 and 630

[Lindsay27]

Hello! It does look this your LO is ready to transition to 4hr EASY, so essentially instead of 3 x 1.5hr naps and a CN you will end up with 2 x 1.5-2hr naps and a CN.  I put some links below but I think if you are at a 1.45hr A time right now he shouldn't have too much trouble moving to a 2hr A time.  You can even just try increasing by 5/10mins at first and then do that again a few days later. 

3-4hr EASY Transition – In 5 Minute Increments
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY

[sunny90]

Thanks! We do not do a DF, should I be starting one now because he'll be getting less feedings during the day? With all my other kids I did a DF pretty much from the beginning but I don't know with him I just never started. Is it worth it to DF for the next 3-4 months til I completely night wean him? Because again with my other children I did CC with them at 6 months and then wouldn't feed them during the night except for a DF but with him I worry about it because then it'll be straight to 12 hours with no food unlike the others who had a couple of months til I weaned them off the DF. I'm just concerned that he'll then just be used to eating extra during the night and STILL wake up at his middle night feeds (which is what has happened when I've tried DFing him).

[Lindsay27]

If you don't want to do a DF you certainly don't need to, I never did one with either of my LOs, but at 4 months I would fully expect 1-2 NFs, especially given there is a pretty good growth spurt around this time.  My DD went from 1 NF around 3/4am to 2 NF at 1am and 5am and this is completely normal.

Just a note about BW as I see you did CC with your other LOs, here we do not recommend or support CC as we believe it breaks the bonds of trust between the parent and child.  We are an incredibly supportive community and can help move through transitions using gentle methods, including the move from 3-4hr EASY and (eventually) weaning NFs

[sunny90]

Believe me when I say I tried every "gentle", "no cry" method for my oldest before I did CC and they DID NOT WORK. I was sleep deprived and miserable and so was he, after CC for three nights (with me coming in every 5 min and talking to him through the door), he was going to sleep by himself and we were both happy. Same with my second. With my third I tried PU/PD for THREE WEEKS before throwing up my hands and trying CC, he was sleep trained in a NIGHT! So you'll have to excuse me if I prefer to save us both the misery and skip straight to the method that actually worked for me. I believe in BW, I try every time to get them into good habits but eventually life catches up with me I have to actually get things done instead of spending my entire day patting and shushing and rock my babies to sleep in the stroller for naps and at 6 months they learn to fall asleep by themselves. My babies are on EASY from birth, the only thing I do not do BW style is the pu/pd, which I've found doesn't work for me.
I appreciate your help!
Also, of course at this age they're still taking 2 night feeds, I'm not planning on cutting them out yet, but at 6 months I always cut down to 1 NF (the DF) and then around 7-8 months phased out the DF, I'm not sure how to phase out a feed that they wake up for.

[Lindsay27]

I can absolutely sympathize that shh/pat and PU/PD are not easy and that it takes time.  It is important to remember that the BW methods are not "no cry" methods (we all know there will be plenty of crying) but rather supporting an LO through it

With regards to the transition to 4-hr EASY I believe if you push your A times to 1.45 and hold for a few days and then push again to 2hrs she should transition easily.  What A times are you currently using?

[sunny90]

Okay so cry while I'm there methods 😯 either way.
We already are at 1.45 A time for a few weeks! Does that mean I should just push straight to 2 hrs or do it in 5 min increments? He really is tired at 1.45 but still on a 3 hr schedule feeding wise because I don't know how to adjust the schedule and keep bedtime the same etc. I have done this before but forget I guess. Should I do a 3.5 hr schedule first? He woke up 2 extra times last night which was really hard and made me think he might really need the schedule change.

[Lindsay27]

If you've already been at 1.45 A for a few weeks then I would definitely go ahead and push toward 2hrs, if you want to increase by 10mins and hold for a few days that's fine.  Feeds will extend too but he will probably just increase his feeds - are you BF? If so many find that topping them up before nap helps to get them through.  What time is WU usually?  He may seem tired at 1.45 but sometimes as they get older their sleepy cues get less reliable and they just need a change of activity/stimulation.  We just did a huge A time increase, from 2.5-3hrs in a little over a week and it's just all about keeping them busy!

[sunny90]

Yes I am BF. I'm pretty sure he's tired at 1.45 because I've tried to stretch him and at 1.45 he totally loses it and starts crying and if I wrap him up and give him l the dummy he falls asleep almost instantly. Today I tried to stretch it but he woke up at 30 min very OT. HE definitely has his fed-up cry and we do an activity change but in terms of that I'm pretty confident he's tired. Do I extend the feed time by 10 min too (

[sunny90]

Also is A time the same after a short nap like 30 min? Or do I shorten it or just keep his nap at the usual time?

[Lindsay27]

After a short nap I would reduce the next A time by 10-15mins.  What about trying to increase by just 5mins?  Is he an independent sleeper at all?  It could be more of an issue of not being able to self settle vs A times if you believe his A times are correct.  That said it is always important to stay on top in the A times so that you don't jump up too late and end up with UT naps.  Are you able to spend any time trying to resettle naps? I know that can be difficult if there are other LOs in the mix. 

[sunny90]

He's not really an independent sleeper except a bit more at bedtime (I rub his back in the crib til he falls asleep). For naps he sleeps in his buggy I wrap him give him the dummy bat his bottom til he's sleepy and then put him in the buggy and rock. So usually to keep him asleep I have to catch him when he's just waking up and then rock, usually it works. Otoh today when he went down for his second nap he was screaming when i put him in I was sure it was an OT nap and then he slept for an hour and 15 min with minimal rocking in the middle. So maybe he is ready for longer A times, I don't know.

[Lindsay27]

45min naps and 1.15/1.20hr naps are usually signs of UT...that's a general rule though, doesn't mean it is necessarily correct but that is the norm.  I found my DD learned to transition sleep cycles between 3.5 and 4 months so you may find that moving the A times a bit might help this.  Are all naps in the buggy?  I am wondering if you are wrapping and patting in the buggy if that can be accomplished in the cot/crib as well?  I'm just thinking that she was learning how to transition sleep cycles, so now she can do this independently yk?

[sunny90]

Yes all his naps are in the buggy, I'm trying the full 4 hour schedule today, so far it seemed okayish but he seems a little OT at naps. I pat him in my arms and then put him in and rock. I spent so much time sitting next to his crib and patting that I don't want to go back to that yet, but the only way I can keep him asleep is rocking. I thought I'd try getting him used to longer naps first and then try moving him to the crib.

[Lindsay27]

How did the 4hr schedule go yesterday?

What I did for both my DD and DS was rock and pat until they were really drowsy, almost asleep, and then place in the crib and continue patting for a few minutes, they would be drowsy enough that it wouldn't take much patting in the crib.  Then eventually I started rocking and patting for less time until they were able to go in asleep.  It does take time, and I completely get not wanting to sit beside a crib patting all day, I felt like tearing my hair out with DS especially, but in the long run dedicating some time to it will help them learn how to transition sleep cycles.  This is more for information for when you are ready to want to make that transition