16 weeks - 4 hours EASY - Nighttime sleep needs help DESPERATE!

[Sorbai]

UPDATE:
She had a great EASY today - 2 hour awake times...started her day 8:15...her nighttime sleep started at 8:30 but she is awake now (11pm) and just happy i don't understand why! rocking isn't helpful cuz shes not crying and acting totally not tired, putting her in her crib doesn't help...she's just chatting away. i have her in the swing now but why isn't she going to sleep??

PREVIOUS POST:
My LO just turned 16 weeks on Friday! I've been waiting for this one so I could start sleep training full force.
A little background - she's never been great at night. until abour 6/7 weeks she was up every night from 1-4am. Then she started settling by 2 am but never earlier. She was also waking up for the day around 10:30/11. So a couple weeks ago I started trying to wake her up closer to 9am to encourage her night time starting earlier. It moved up to 1am but not much better consistently. There were early nights here and there but really nothing consistent. Also she has a pack n play next to my bed that she sleep in but when she wakes up in middle of the night its way easier for me to nurse her laying down so I don't have to wake up! But then she's in my bed most of the night....not the intention, just too tired to do anything about it!
So anyway a few nights ago I decided to try stay awake when she nursed in middle of the night so I could put her back in her pnp. Which means very little sleep for me....But it worked until 5:30 am she just did not fall back asleep after that feeding. And since that night of not much sleep it kind of kickstarted us into a 4 hour EASY (kind of. I EBF on demand so i'm not even trying for 4 hours between feeds - more just focusing on 2 hr awake time and 2 hr nap)

So here we go, I'll give you yesterday's schedule:

WU 7am WU
E/A
S 8:15 - she is sooo tired in the morning its hard to keep her up too long. 1 hr 25 min nap
E/A 9:40
S 11:40
E/A 1:20
S 3:20 - she slept til 6!
E/A 6
         then I took a nap while DH was with LO and slept longer than intended so....
S 8:30 (should have been 8....)
        and that should have started her nighttime. 7am - 830pm sounds like a good day to me!

She slept til about 11:15. I went in, nursed her, then she pooped (I try not to change diapers in mid of the night), burped, nursed her on the other side, burped again, at around 11:45 I put her down in crib, she was AWAKE but happy so I decided to try my luck...at around 12:15 I went back to her to see if I could resettle her for sleep - unswaddled her, changed her diaper, reswaddled, held/rocked for a few minutes....then put her in swing in hopes she would fall asleep while I was in the shower. She was still talking and kicking when I got out! But i left her cuz she wasn't crying and eventually she did fall asleep. And slept for a while, I think I took her out at around 4 or so to nurse. Then I kept her in my bed but not cuddled next to me so she had her own space. She woke up again around 6/630 and I nursed her and she fell back asleep nursing. In the end she started her day at 8:15 today. Which is fine by me, She had an almost 2 hr awake time and went for a nap at 11:05 so schedule today is going ok so far, I just don't get why she is not sleeping well at night....any insight?

I do nurse to sleep sometimes (try to only do this when she really seems to need it) but have started trying the gentle removal - this worked well by her bed time last night since she got a bit overtired (was supposed to go for nap at 8 but ended up being 830)

That's my main issue right now. I'm working on nap extending with a combo of pat/shush and pu/pd. I usually end up being near her abt 30 min after she goes to sleep til abt 60 min - mostly with just a hand on her back but sometimes pat/shush or pu/pd depending on what she needs to cont nap.

I have been thinking maybe I'm just trying to do a whole lot with her at one time and as long as her naps are good for a week or so then her nights may get better too....This is only our 3rd day on a 2 hr awake time and so far it's been going great.

That was a lot of info any insights?

[Scottishmummy]

Hugs, those nights sound very broken, you must be exhausted. My DD was a good napper but a poor night sleeper for ages and used to have 2hr cot parties at 1am..*shudder*

For us some of that was developmental & the 4monstage is very disruptive for sleep as there is a lot of developmental stuff going on...so that could be contributing,

I also wonder if hunger is part of it? Some BF babies are not ready for a 4hr EASY at 16wks. At this stage they get more alert and curious in the day though so sometimes hunger cues become less reliable and they seem ready to go longer between feeds..but the n need to compensate at night.  Could you try feeding more frequently in the day e.g. 3-3.5hrly?

It looks like she's getting a good amount of day sleep, but I also wonder if some of this is compensating for bad nights but then giving you a situation where she's taking her sleep in the day and UT at night? Could you post a few more days of your routine to give me a better understanding  of her naps?

Hoe is the gentle removal going? Getting independent sleep at BT becomes important at this age to encourage self settling during the night.

Sorry no definite answers but a few things to think about and with more information and a bit of trial and error we can try to work out what might be going on & what might help.

[Sorbai]

I don't think she is hungry because I don't follow the "E" of EASY in the sense that I feed mostly on demand. These days if she is not asking for it, I nurse her when she wakes up and then again about a half hour before she is going down for her next nap to avoid her wanting to nurse to sleep. The gentle removal seems to be working and making sure to feed her earlier makes me feel confident she does not need to nurse right before sleep so I don't even offer unless she is really having a hard time settling.

Sunday EASY:
A 8:15 am
S 10:05 am (I have been trying to push her to the full 2 hr awake time)

A 11:50 am
S 1:55 pm

A 3:30 pm
S 5:37 pm

A 6:25 pm
S 8:35 pm

A 9:45 pm
S 1:30 am
               So here since I thought she should have started her nighttime, I thought maybe she woke up to eat so I nursed her and she nursed with eyes closed for a while but then when she was done her eyes popped open! So I tried to rock her, put her in swing, etc and she just did not go to sleep. She was happily awake! I kept her swaddled most of the time too, except for when she pooped...I figured since she was still wide awake I should change her even though I usually try not to change her diaper in middle of the night. Anyway she ended up going to sleep at 1:30 am for night...ugh!

Monday:
A 8:44 am
S 10:38 am

A 1:30 pm (She woke up at 12:40 but my husband was home and he rocked her back to sleep and she slept an additional hour almost! I think she was not ready to be done her night sleep yet....)
S 3:38 pm

A 5:40 pm
S 7:40 pm

A 8:23 pm
S 10:20 pm

A 11:03 pm
S 12:30ish for the night

Probably the 11pm wake up I mayyy have been able to put her back to sleep but it's so hard when she's just awake and happy....but this mama needs sleep!

Today's EASY was not as great cuz I dared leave the house!
She woke up 7:45 am to nurse and I thought about unswaddling her to start her day but I was so tired and she stayed sleeping....so....

A 9:45am
S 11:40 am

A 1:40 pm
S 3:40 pm

it all went downhill from there cuz we were out of the house...but we had a good start to today! We'll see how her night develops.

The main thing I just don't get is if she is going 2 hr awake times well and getting good solid naps, why isn't she sleeping at night and not just not sleeping but being so happily awake! Is it OT? If it is... why is she getting OT?? I feel like she just needs an extra 2 hr awake time at night but I can't imagine why!

Any more insight after seeing those schedules? Thanks so much!

[Scottishmummy]

Thanks for posting that.  Looks like 2hrs A time suits her and you're getting great naps. The nights sound exhausting though. I found with mine that long, happy, wide awake NWs were either developmental (& 4mo is a key time for this ) or UT.

Can I ask what time you are aiming for as BT? It's not clear from your post. What is your BT wind down routine?

Also are you waking her from the last nap of the day/ (ETA:3rd nap) or does she wake herself?
ETA: Just wondering if full A time after a 40min nap is too much and whether she might settle for the night earlier if you do a shorter A time after that shorter 3rd nap e.g. 1.5hrs and and an earlier BT?

Sorry for more questions and no suggestions yet, just trying to figure out what might be going on for her.

[Sorbai]

My goal for BT is not a specific time right now, it's more of a 12-13 hours after her first morning WU. I guess my "ideal" day is 8-8 or 8-9 but it just depends what time she wakes in the morning.
Full awake time may be too long after a short nap...I'm trying to figure exactly that out.
I haven't been waking her from her last nap of the day but I did yesterday and it worked out. Today may be a different story, not sure where this night is heading.

Yesterday she started her day at 8:45am so I was aiming for a BT before 10pm

A 8:45
S 10:15 (she just couldn't do longer!)
A 12:00
S 1:50
A 3:30
S 5:20 ----we were out of the house here and she fell asleep in the baby carrier but only for 10 mins
A 5:30
S 6:45 ----she was so tired, I put her down when we got home. Actually she was so tired that she didn't even wake up at the 45 min mark!
A 8:20 ----I woke her up...I hate waking up sleeping babies but I really wanted to try get a good BT!

BT: Started wind down 9:40 (closing lights in the house, diaper, pjs, dark room, swaddle, white noise, songs) here i ended up nursing her (I do this when I'm not confident she is not hungry and she is having a hard time settling) with gentle removal I was able to put her in her crib at 10:10 which is great for her! She woke up around 10:45, I tried to have my husband resettle her and she did fall back asleep but not enough to put her down and eventually around 11:30 I nursed her and she fell back asleep

So that was pretty good for us!



Today she woke up 7:45 but then her 2nd and 3rd naps were not as great as I hoped for so I just did BT routine with her and put her down at 7:20 but it might have been too early for a BT. Not sure what will happen

[Scottishmummy]

Fingers crossed for a good night for you.

Two thoughts...

1) that routine looks pretty good, if she'd been at home and got a slightly longer CN you might have got normal BT

2) on other hand some babies naturally have an earlier wake and night sleep pattern. I.e. They naturally do more of a 7-7 day even if we want them to do later. It looks like your LO did a better night with a much shorter CN and an earlier BT & is looking for earlier BT. Would you consider shifting the day earlier (with a shorter late pm CN- I personally never did more than 10-15min after 5pm so I could get a 6.30-7pm BT) so you don't need to wake her at 8 for the last feed?

[Sorbai]

Last night was very enlightening. I was right that 7:20 BT was too early for her last night. Especially since she usually starts her day more around 8 or so. When she woke up at 8 instead of resettling her I should have let her be awake and worked for a 930 BT.

I think I am going to try for the next few days to have a morning wake up between 7:30-9 (as close to 8 as possible though) and then a BT of 8:30/9 and try to protect that so even if it means waking her up from her last nap. Cuz last night she ended up just having a great nap from 7:20pm-9pm and catching up from being OT from the day and then having a great last awake time...not so great for me though! So gonna try for a 9ish pm BT for the next few days and see how it goes.

Thanks for thinking this out with me I really appreciate it!

[Scottishmummy]

Sounds like a plan, let us know how you get on.
Xx