Advice please for a very tired mum and dad

[Stresibeti]

hi all,

first time posting and i am hoping you can offer some nuggets of wisdom to me please.
My lo is about to turn 11 months old in a few days and he is not sleeping through the night at all. waking any where from 3-5 times.
I can count the number of times he has he has slept the full night on one hand!!! i dont know where I am going wrong with him. We have a pretty solid routine in place with him but its just not happening. so maybe you guys could shed some light.

all in all he is very happy out little chap. He's a great eater, drinks the majority of his fbottles each day along with taking some water in between as well.
the poor thing has been teething since he came out of the womb, we've practically had a tooth a month since he was born so this hasn't helped matters but at this stage i think we are all ready for a full nights sleep .

I haven't been too well ( have a clotting disorder so that leaves me quite week and am in the process of getting iron IVs weekly, hard to keep the energy up with the babs anyone never mind this) and am back in work 2 weeks now, he is well settled in creche over a month and doing quite well. So it time to get this sorted.Other wise I won't be able to function in months time

His daily routine goes mostly like this:

5.30/6.00 wake and play in bed, if I could stretch this to 6.30 it would be amazing too 

6.30 breakfast

7:00 7 oz bottle

7.30 we leave the house then and he has 15 min trip to creche. he plays for about a half hour and they put him down for a nap.
This can be anywhere from 20 mins long to an hour. he's still getting used to sleeping in a room with other kids so hopefully this will get better.


9.30/10  snack and water

11:30 lunch and the a bottle

12:00 -2 Nap Hopefully this nap is 2-2 1/2hrs long but obviously depends on the day.

2.30 snack

3.30 afternoon tea and a 7oz bottle ( he won't take this most days as he is collected at 5.00 and drinks it int he car then on the way home.)


4.45 snack and some water

5.00 Home.

5.30 dinner, water  and play

6.30 We start our bed time routine bath, bottle, book, bed. He doesn't get a bath every night but I bring him into the bathroom and wash his face and hands and brush his teeth so as to keep the same flow.

7.30/8.00 asleep.   We had some trouble the last month with him going asleep he was refusing to go with out the bottle and then he would kick and scream . it was taking almost 2 hours to get him to sleep and then he was waking every hour.  Figured out is was due to not getting enough sleep during the day or bottles at creche so we got strict on them about nap times and bottles and the settle to sleep issue has eased off.

 7:00-7:15 bedtime. mostly he goes down without fuss. he goes down 5 days out of the 7 awake and i rub his back for a few mins or  i potter about folding clothes in the hall singing and rolls over and sleep.

the other two nights we have fussing and he might look for some more bottle ( i mostly give him water then) and he will take a oz or so and roll away and fall asleep.


Our trouble starts between 10-11 he wakes crying and rolling around the cot. he's not a fan of pupd method. we get a lot of scream and he waked us fully if I do this . So rub his back or his ears.  for a full two weeks I avoided giving him a feed at this time and it was hell. I gave him water but he woke almost ever half hour over this time period.
So i caved liked any normal person and give him a feed at this time now as he seem desperately thirsty. he downs the full bottle.  i change his nappy after this.

If I am lucky he only wakes twice after this    if I'm not, like last night he wakes around 1.00 am and then around 3 and 4 or 5 and up at 5.30.

between 11.00 and 5.00 i only give him water. if he is extremely restless and I am at my wits end i have an emergency bottle waiting but he'll only take

i have tired almost everything e.g giving him a night time cereal to see if it is hunger, singing to him. shushing him and rubbing his back( this works for 5 mins of respite), just giving him water at 11 pm waking time and subsequent wakings. not changing his nappy, changing his nappy twice in the middle of night. using different nappies to see if it was this effecting him. White noise, music.

I just don't know what to to do now. as i said previously his routine is pretty good, he thrives on it. he looks forward to bed but once he is in it and such hard work at night.

Any advice would be much appreciated folks.

thanks

[FPT23]

Hi! Welcome!

First of all, I'm deeply sorry about your health condition. Add a restless nights and it can be awful, I'm more than positive. Will keep you in my thoughts and send positive vibes your way! Things will get better; let's stay positive

Now, onto the help! Has your LO ever slept independently? Can he fall asleep on his own without a bottle or your arms rocking/holding etc? It might be a good idea to address any props at this time, if he hasn't slept independently regularly.

Another thing that I have a question about, so just to clarify, he's taking a nap at 7:30am? And it lasts 20mins/1hr? I know you say he needs to adjust to other kids and that could very well be the case... However, the nap is coming very early after his initial wake up time. Here's a link for average awake times for his age. It's a good reference to keep handy. I refer back to it quite often myself!

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

Being that his morning nap is coming so early, and so shorts he is  probably over tired come his second nap, which is why it's so long. He's also having a long day when his BT is at 7pm... He's awake from 5:30am and asleep at 7:15pm or so. I would try an earlier BT. I think it's possible he's stuck in a UT/OT loop.

Also, so much NWing, I also tend to attribute to some sort of discomfort. Are you trying to medicate before BT?

Hang in there and many hugs

[deb]

Agree, that naps schedule probably isn't doing him any favors. Not all babies are ready for a single nap at 11 months, so if he needs 2 naps, then spreading them out more during the day makes much more sense, so maybe one late morning and another mid-afternoon (but not too late so it doesn't interfere with him being properly sleepy at bedtime).

If he's sucking down a full bottle in the evening I'd also see about upping his daytime calories. How much is he taking at bedtime?

Finally, if he's teething, he might be on to molars now, and they HURT. Can you give him some pain meds before bed that would last longer than the time he normally wakes? Nurofen/ibuprofen I think lasts 6-8 hours. If it makes a difference, then you know.

[FPT23]

Yes, and just to add.... When that first nap comes too early, it can always be a cause for EWs. I know you mentioned you'd prefer a later wake up time. That's something to consider as well

[Stresibeti]

Hi

Thanks a mill for coming back and trying to help. It is greatly appreciated.

So to answer your questions:

Can he fall asleep in his own?   Yes but it took training around the 5 month mark.  He never been great for just falling asleep by himself. When I put him down he'll either roll over onto his belly and want a little back rub or we have a stand up,  lie him down session (about 10/15 mins)  he'll take a sup more bottle,  roll over into a comfy position and he sings/babbles himself to sleep. He doesn't like to fall asleep in our arms,  he arches his back and squirms looking to be put down in his cot. So I give him his bottle,  change his nappy and pop him down in cot and read or sing to him.

His morning nap in creche : apologies I explained this wrong and also got the timing wrobg. So he gets to creche has a snack and they put him down around 8.45/9. When we leave the house he is rubbing his eyes and tired and cranky so I dont not think they could pushing out any later with out being to close to the set  afternoon nap Time in creche.

I've tried putting him down earlier other evening but we still have the same problem also this selfish I know. I only get in from work at 6.30pm so I barely get a half hour with him before bed. If he goes early I won't see him at all 

When you say medicate do you mean pain relief?  I only give pain relief when needed and I give it a good half hour before bed.

The problem is that nap wise during the day I don't have much control over its down to the creche. He naturally himself stopped sleeping in the late afternoon (used yo have 4/4.30 nap for 1\2 hr)  so I stuck with the morning and 12.30 - 2 and one. The creche initially didn't put him down in the morning and the first month was hell trying to get him down for bed at night  so I sorted that out.

Bottle wise he gets 28 Oz throughout the day before bed. Then I have one ready for the 11 stirring. Most  nights he looks for this. The Last week he's refusing it but still waking so I'm just rubbing and patting his back but then he wakes screaming  famished at 2.30!  I stick with water. This placates him for 10 mins and crying starts again.

We always make sure to try other methods first before giving him a bottle but were back in his room an half hour or hour later. 

[deb]

Famished in the middle of the night says to me he needs more daytime calories. Might be time to ratchet up the solids during the day a little. Is he getting enough good fats? Avocados, olive oil, butter - these are calories he can use a bit more of. If you cook chicken, dark meat has more fat naturally than white meat, and these little guys need those fats for brain & nerve development and hormone production especially.

And yes I was suggesting pain meds before bedtime. My kids were distracted enough from the pain when they were awake that it wasn't a big deal but come bedtime and worse during the night, when they woke then there was no distraction - the pain was all they seemed to notice. I was suggesting to try a dose before bedtime just to see if it makes a difference; if he sleeps through when given pain meds, it might be that his molars are hurting him at night and the bottle is as much comfort as food. You'd really only need to try it one or two nights to see if it would be needed like that. Just a thought.

[Stresibeti]

I'm trying to think of where i can up the calorie count with him.
He's eat a lot during day but is quite slight in waist size so he does seem to burn it up quicker than the average 11 month old. My public health nurse noticed and said it was nothing to worry about as long he was steadily gaining weight.

he gets porridge made with milk in the morning.lunch is a meat veg carbs.Then in the afternoon its usually pulses or eggs or sweet potato or soup. in the evening for dinner he get what we have for dinner. pasta, rice ,meat veg. and a desert. And i give him a night time cereal as well
Snack wise, it rice cakes, yogurts, fruits, chopped veggies etc.

As you said maybe i should try push more the "better fats" his way. it might more filling on his stomach.

We do give a him pain med before bed if he is suffering with his gums. I give him a paracetamol suppository and 2.5ml of nurofen. I can tell when this wears off. its literally 6 hours after he gets it, as he wakes on the button. but he won't taken any pain meds in a drink. spits it right back so I have to try get in while he is asleep with a syringe. messy and a bit dangerous as he always ends up coughing.

I'm going to try change our routine a slight bit  with him this evening.
I have asked the creche to make sure he has his third bottle in there before my husband picks him up and we'll put him down for a short nap. (push the bed time back by a half hour or so). he isn't napping well enough in the creche to get fully eliminate a third nap. so I feel this might do him well.
Give him is evening bottle, dinner , play, bath and bed.

I'm going to preserver when he stirs at 11 looking for a feed with shushing and rubbing his back / WI/WO. it'll be a long weekend no doubt but hopefully worth it.

I'll come back and let you know how i get on. keep the fingers crossed.

Oh and thanks so much. this site and your guys are great resource and help.

[deb]

Good luck!

Hey, is he walking yet, or doing more pulling up? That stuff takes a LOT of calories, so if he's begun even pulling up (or is about to start), his body's going to need plenty of good nutrient-dense food.

Is the yogurt full-fat? It should be, especially at this age. You might also try introducing him to dips for veggies; sour cream (or even plain yogurt) made into a dip can be filling too, and if he sees you eating veg that way he may want to try it. Will he eat avocadoes? Mine would eat guacamole (I would always buy mine pre-made from the store), and I'd add a little olive oil to up the fat content even a bit more. Maybe switch out the rice cake for a protein/fat and see if it makes a difference, as those are more long-term filling.

[Stresibeti]

he is desperately trying to walk. hes on the go all the time.
I was told give him greek youghurt because of the sugar content in the other ones. so I puree berries and stewed fruit to add to it.

food wise, he eats everything. i feel quite lucky at the min he is a great eater. Avocados would be a fav of his. they were his first veg to try to so they seem to a struck a chord with him

I'll try over the weekend to give heavier snacks and see how we go.

I feel like i have been so proactive trying to different methods to get him to sleep and nothing seems to work. I'm giving things to December with him and if we still have a problem I may call a sleep consultant. Or my mother in for a week, she had 10 of us so shes probably better than the sleep consultant.

[Stresibeti]

First night didn't go great but after waking at 5 he went for a super nap at 8.30 to almost 10.  We'll keep going 

[deb]

A good solid nap might well set you up for a better night. Let us know how you get on with the heavier foods and the night sleep.

And it may take a few days to break the cycle and adjust the sleep and awake times, so be patient.

And depending on where you are, don't forget that in another few weeks there's a time change. I found that sometimes those worked in my favor.

[Stresibeti]

Thanks deb,  we didn't get on much better last night sleep wise.  He had a solid nap yesterday r morning than another 1 1/2 hrs in the afternoon. 

Food wise I bulked up his lunch (Brown bread, avocado and chicken) and dinner (beef stew,  sweet potato, butternut squash I put blitz in beans and lentils)  and tea, scrambled egg even managed to get some mushed banana and bed time cereal in there. Along with 4 x 7oz bottles. 

He went down super quick  at 7.00 pm and slept reasonable solidly until  12/12.30,  tossing and turning then banging his feet looking for his nappy to be changed. Which I did.

I tired shushing and patting his back for an hour but then he was starting to wake fully,  stand in cot,  cry. I lay him back down a few times,  sang,  patted, shushed but he kept smacking his lips together looking for a bottle. I held out until 2.30  I just reached exhaustion levels myself and gave in. He took about 2 ounces though so maybe that's something in itself and then he woke an hour later,  Repeat of everything again,  and then at 4 and then up at 6 30.  It's the other half on duty tonight so we will see how he fairs tonight.

[Palmira78]

Hi Stresibeti!
I fully understand what you are going through since I have also some NWs. Nevertheless good luck! I am sure that soon you will be improving your nights.
Have you considered changing your LO time schedule during the weekends and then keep it for the week / work time?
For example, on a Saturday morning when your LO wakes up, try to re-settle him and aim for him to sleep a little bit longer, so your days do not start so early, and follow you current EASY but starting at 7.00, for example. If you block any light, and keep everything silent, or even bring him to your bed for one extra hour sleep, may be it could work... Sorry if this does not sound ok, I am just throwing ideas :-)