4 month regression - how to get back on track?!

[MrsTigs]

Hi everyone,

My little girl turned 5 months on Saturday and for the last 6 weeks (at least!) her sleep has been all over the place! 30 minute catnaps, nap refusal, multiple wake ups at night (not necessarily for a feed) and wanting to start the day at 4.30am 

We’ve put it down to a combination of factors:

• 4 month sleep regression
• 4th developmental leap (Wonder Week)
• her first cold
• teething pain

Previously, she was taking 2 decent naps (1-2hrs) plus an evening catnap and then sleeping for around 10-11 hours straight at night. She’s been a good sleeper since about 6 weeks old, mostly STTN and settling easily for naps in her crib with a dummy (so very different to her brother!!). These last 6 weeks have hit us hard and we're now desperate to get back on track!! 

Her teeth are still bothering her, but she is now over her cold and the lingering cough that followed. She also seems to be coming out of her developmental leap and just this week has learnt to roll over from back to tummy. Not sure if it’s related, but she’s also started to sleep better at night this week, thankfully! We hear her wake as she’s still in our room, but she sucks her fingers for a bit and puts herself back to sleep. We have had a couple of early wake ups, but the clock change hasn't helped with that of course! 

So, my question is, how do we get back to decent daytime naps?? We just went with the flow over the last 6 weeks, staying fairly consistent, but APOPing naps as required……… but I’ve now lost sight of what an age-appropriate routine should look like for her. 

Here are a couple of examples from the last few days:

W/up: 6am (after 11hrs sleep)
E: 6.30 (8oz)
A: 2hrs
S: 8.06-8.40 (33mins)
E: 10.15 (6oz)
A: 1hr (getting very fussy so put her down)
S: 11.20-12.20 (1hr)
E: 2.30 (6oz)
A: 3.5 hrs (nap refusal from about 2hrs in!)
S: 3.55-4.33 (38mins in the car)
E: 6.40 (8oz)
A: 3hrs
S: 7.20pm

W/up: 7am (after 11.5 hrs sleep)
E: 7.30 (7oz)
A: 2hrs
S: 9-9.35 (35mins)
E: 11.30 (5oz)
A: 2.5hrs
S: 12.10-12.240 (30mins)
A: 1hr 10mins (seemed sleepy so put her back down)
S: 1.50-2.30 (40mins)
E: 3.30 (6oz)
A: 2hrs 20 mins
S: 4.50-5.20 (30mins)
E: 6.30 (6oz)
A: 2hrs
S: 7.15pm

She generally wakes up happy from those 30/40min naps, so I feel like she’s probably UT? Although building OT as the day progresses (which might explain why we’ve had some brief wake ups around 1 hour after bedtime). Previously, her morning nap was always the longest (2+hours) and she could then exist on catnaps for the rest of the day, if required, or take another 1hr nap plus short catnap. Sometimes she would wake after 40mins in the morning, but could easily be resettled with a dummy – now I just get excited smiles if I go in and try to replace it 

I’m thinking she probably needs more A time so I pushed her second one to 2hrs 15mins this morning. She grumbled quite a bit about that, but was also a bit hungry as a short morning nap means that her feed and sleep times coincide. We switched her to 4hr EASY just before her sleep went wonky, as she was regularly sleeping through her feeds and didn’t seem hungry at 3 hours. We did wonder whether that was also having an impact on her sleep, but to be honest, she’s such a snacker anyway due to reflux, so generally eats her bottle in two or three sittings over the two hours or so that she’s awake. She often finishes her milk just before naptime, but I don’t think there’s a sleep association there, as I always put her down drowsy.

Anyway, with the longer second A time, today has gone like this so far:

W/up: 5.45 (after 11hrs sleep)
E: 6.15 (6oz)
A: 2hrs
S: 7.50-8.26 (35mins)
E: 10am (8oz)
A: 2hrs 15mins
S: 10.40-11.15 (35mins)
A: awake for 20mins before she started grumbling, so replaced dummy and she actually settled!
S: 11.35 and has currently been asleep for another hour 

So, I’m wondering how far and fast I should push her A times and whether that seems like a good plan?? Hmm.... this has turned into quite an essay, so I’m hoping that someone will have time to read through and help me unpick it! 

Tigs xx

[MrsTigs]

So, she just woke, making a nap extension of one hour    Haven't been able to extend in weeks!

Also, I just found a BW post I wrote when she was going through a previous wonky patch and apparently she was happily doing this routine at 9 weeks (albeit with a bit of OT/OS bedtime screaming....):

W/up: 6.30
E: on waking
A: 1 hour 15 mins
S: 7.45 (for 1.5-2 hours)
E: 10ish
A: 1 hour 45 mins
S: 11.45 (for 1 hour)
E: 1ish
A: 2 hours
S: 3ish (for 50 mins)
E: 4ish
A: 1-2 hours
S: between 5&6 (catnap 30/40 mins)
E: 7ish
A: between 2-3 hours depending on timing of catnap (this was a bit long and she often got cranky whilst we were trying to deal with bedtime carnage times two!!)
S: 8.30 (for 9-10 hours, occasionally with a feed at 2.30/3am

At the time, the mod suggested that she might be tracking around 2 months ahead in terms of her A times and that we should keep that in mind...... Obviously went in one ear and out the other! 

[Lindsay27]

Hello!  I think you are exactly right and her A times need a bit of a push, and exactly like you said she is likely in a UT/OT loop situation by the end of the day.  We had to really ramp the A times up during the 5th month to get through the 3-2...by the time my DD was 6 months she was at a 3hr A and I'd say she's fairly average sleep needs, perhaps even a little high sleep needs.  So first things first, I'd push that first A to at least 2.15 and hold for a few days and if the nap doesn't lengthen then go ahead and bump up a touch more.

[MrsTigs]

Hi Lindsay,

Thank you so much for your reply and apologies for the late acknowledgement - we were all struck down with a sickness bug just after I posted my question, so were out of action for the rest of the week 

Needless to say our routines have been all over the place with everyone gettting sick, but things have settled down in the last few days and I've been trying to do a 2hr 15min A time in the morning. She's taken a little while to settle at that time (used to going down earlier?) and it's been more like 2hr 25min before she goes off. This has produced some 45-50min naps, so seems like we're heading in the right direction. I've also been able to extend her later naps on some occasions, after A times of around 2.5-3hrs 

We are still getting some disturbed nights however..... She quite often wakes briefly 45mihs or so after going to bed - is that an OT symptom? The rest of the night isn't too bad, although she does have a wakeful period around 2am and is waking for the day at 6am (which is a bit earlier than her previous 'good' pattern, but waaaaay better than 5am!!)

So, we're definitely heading in the right direction, but I think she might still be building OT throughout the day. If she does take a short catnap (30mins) what should her next A time look like? She sometimes seems sleepy again around 1hr 30mins, but I'm not sure whether I should put her down again so soon? On the occasions when I have, she's gone off ok, but still only slept for 30mins. When I've left her longer (say 2hrs plus) she sometimes grumbles before going off, but still only sleeps for 30mins!! Really pushing her to 2.5-3hrs (which has happen by accident a couple of times) can result in longer 50min naps/nap extensions, but surely that's too long an A time after a 30min non-nap?!  She copes quite well during the day, but she definitely get screechy and grumpy by 4/5pm on those days so OT must be setting in. I try to put her down to bed a bit earlier in that case, but she often fights it and ends up going to bed around her usual time (7-7.30) anyway 

The trouble with catnaps and then shorter A times afterwards though, is that I'm constantly putting her down to sleep and she ends up taking 4 or 5 naps a day when I want to be working towards two plus catnap, and then dropping that third sleep in a little while too. So I'm not sure what A times gaps to be leaving after short and longer naps and how to prevent OT whilst also pushing her A times to get things back on a better track?  She mostly wakes up happy from her naps, regardless of the length! The only exception to that is if she stays awake for nearer 3 hours and then wakes after 30mins - then she will cry and protest loudly until I soothe her/replace dummy, and then she's able to extend the nap for another 50-60mins typically.

Anyway, it's getting late and this has turned into a bit of a ramble..... But hope you can makes sense and offer a few suggestions!

Thanks again, Tigs x

[Lindsay27]

She's taken a little while to settle at that time (used to going down earlier?) and it's been more like 2hr 25min before she goes off.

If she's taking a little while to settle with a 2.15hr A time and falls asleep closer to 2.5hrs, then I would just go ahead and bump her A as this is usually a symptom of being UT, and that might also help her to extend the nap longer.

She quite often wakes briefly 45mihs or so after going to bed - is that an OT symptom?

Usually yes, this is an OT waking, if some naps are short then the OT can just accumulate throughout the day.  It can mean UT too though depending...how much day sleep do you think she gets?

If she does take a short catnap (30mins) what should her next A time look like?

I usually reduce the next A by about 20mins.  Even if she is OT, those naps can often be easier to resettle than UT ones.  I generally find that quite a bit of OT develops through the 3-2 transition and it is just kind of one of those things you need to push through to get to the other side.  It is to be expected but it really sounds like you have a great handle on it!

The trouble with catnaps and then shorter A times afterwards though, is that I'm constantly putting her down to sleep and she ends up taking 4 or 5 naps a day when I want to be working towards two plus catnap, and then dropping that third sleep in a little while too. So I'm not sure what A times gaps to be leaving after short and longer naps and how to prevent OT whilst also pushing her A times to get things back on a better track?  

Such is the 3-2, sigh!  The best thing you can do is try to keep the A times on the high-end and just deal with the OT.  Alternatively what I did was a short-long-short nap routine and at a certain point I just forgot about A times altogether and didn't put her down for a nap before 9am no matter what time she woke up.

So we did something like:
WU 6:30
Nap 9:15-10:15 (capped)
Nap 12:15-2:15
Nap 4:45-5:15 (capped)
BT 7:30

We did this for about a week until I got her A times up to 3hrs and at that point we just went for 2 naps.

This is a great link about the 3-2 that is worth the read
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[MrsTigs]

Hi Lindsey!

Once again, belated thanks for your reply! Illness unfortunately struck us again just after my last post  We all had nasty colds/coughs and it turned to bronciolitis for little miss and she ended up in hospital for a week on oxygen support, sedation and a feeding tube. She bounced back quite quickly as the virus ran it's course, but it took us another two weeks after coming home to ease her back into her usual feeding and sleeping patterns.

We've been back to 'normal' for a week or so now, but are still suffering from erratic naps and very disturbed nights...... The last few nights she has woken every 1-2 hours and both my husband and I are now exhausted from taking shifts in with her.    She fusses when she wakes up, but this soon turns to crying unless we replace her dummy, so her sleep association with that may well be part of the problem? We did considered teething again, but she seems relatively happy in the day. Separation anxiety also crossed my mind as she's started getting wary of strangers and less happy to play alone if I'm in another room. The other possible factor could be the start of weaning as her digestive system adjusts - she's got quite gassy and a bit constipated over the last few days, which could be causing her pain at night?

Anyway, to quickly answer your previous questions:

She's taken a little while to settle at that time (used to going down earlier?) and it's been more like 2hr 25min before she goes off.

If she's taking a little while to settle with a 2.15hr A time and falls asleep closer to 2.5hrs, then I would just go ahead and bump her A as this is usually a symptom of being UT, and that might also help her to extend the nap longer.

I have been holding her morning A time at 2.5hrs and this does seem to be producing longer naps of 1-1.5hrs  She sometimes wakes with a cry around 30mins in, but either resettles herself or will go back off if I replace her dummy. She has lately been screaming and fussing from about 2-2.25hrs, making me think I'm keeping her up too long, but if I put her down even 5mins early we always get 25-30min naps and she won't resettle 

She quite often wakes briefly 45mihs or so after going to bed - is that an OT symptom?

Usually yes, this is an OT waking, if some naps are short then the OT can just accumulate throughout the day.  It can mean UT too though depending...how much day sleep do you think she gets?

On a 'good' day, she will get around 3.5 hours day sleep. On a catnap day it can sometimes be as little as 2 hours (4x30min). My gut feeling says the bedtime waking is related to OT building in the day when she has bad naps, but then again it also happens on longer naps days    So perhaps more related to dummy use/reliance??

If she does take a short catnap (30mins) what should her next A time look like?

I usually reduce the next A by about 20mins.  Even if she is OT, those naps can often be easier to resettle than UT ones.  I generally find that quite a bit of OT develops through the 3-2 transition and it is just kind of one of those things you need to push through to get to the other side.  It is to be expected but it really sounds like you have a great handle on it!

This is a tricky one as I haven't yet figured out what A time produces a good second nap! Partly because we are often running errands or going out with older brother in the afternoon, but partly because she just seems so erratic........ This morning I did 2.5hrs A time and she slept for just over an hour. I was then aiming for another 2.5hrs A (at least), but she was in an absolute state by 2hrs, screaming and scratching at her face! I changed her, fed her some more, took her for a walk round the house, but in the end just put her down and she went straight off (with dummy) after a little protest. But..... she only slept for 30mins and wouldn't resettle??  And now, half an hour on, has started yawning and screeching at me again  So I really am confused!


As a point her reference, her last few days have looked like this:

W/u: 7.10am
A: 2hrs 35mins
S: 9.45 - 11.50 (2hrs 5mins)
A: 2hrs 40mins
S: 2.30 - 4pm (1hr 30mins)
A: 2hrs 45mins
S: bedtime at 6.45, but woke after 30mins - resettled by 7.30 and slept until 7.30 (with multiple brief wakings for dummy I'm sure!)

The next couple of days were a bust because we needed to be out and about at the wrong times, so I wrote those off! Then we had the following couple of days mostly at home:

W/u: 6.30am
A: 2hrs 40mins
S: 9.10 - 10.10 (1 hr)
A: 2hrs 40mins
S: 12.50 - 1.30 (39mins - wouldn't resettle)
A: 3 hrs
S: 4.30 - 5.05 (35mins)
A: 2hrs 35mins
S: bedtime at 7.35

W/u: 7.10am
A: 2hrs 25mins (she was screaming to go down!)
S: 9.35 - 10.15 (40mins)
A: 2hrs 45mins
S: 1pm - 3.30 (2hrs 30mins!!)
A: 3hrs
S: bedtime at 6.30 (she woke briefly at 8pm, then again at 11pm, 1am, 4.30am, 5.30am, 6.15am  Each wake up was only brief, for a dummy replug, and she woke for the day at 7.30)

Today w/u: 7.30am
A: 2hrs 30 mins (but screeching from 2.25hrs)
S: 10 - 11.05 (1hr 5 mins)
A: 2hrs 10mins (really unsettled all morning)
S: 1.15 - 1.45 (30mins and wouldn't resettle)

Any thoughts on the above? I'm really struggling with lack of sleep right now and just can't seem to unpick anything.....    We are almost at the end of Wonder Week 5, according to my app, but to be honest this pattern of erratic naps and night waking never really improved between WW4/the 4 month regression so I'm not sure what the cause is. I'm wondering whether we need to wean her from the dummy, but haven't the faintest clue how to do that!

Thanks for all your assistance so far! (And please do shout if I should make a new thread on the props/NW boards)

Tigs x

[MrsTigs]

So last night was awful again, with her waking pretty much every hour    I'm feeling really down today and pretty much at the end of my tether 

The rest of the day yesterday went like this:

W/u: 7.30am
A: 2hrs 30mins (but screeching from 2.25hrs)
S: 10 - 11.05 (1hr 5mins)
A: 2hrs 10mins (really unsettled all morning)
S: 1.15 - 1.45 (30mins and wouldn't resettle)
A: 2hrs 45mins (probably should have been shorter, but she was actually playing happily!)
S: 4.30 - 5pm (30 mins)
A: 1hr 30mins (getting OT and protesting!)
S: 6.30, but woke briefly at 7.15 and was crying out in her sleep all evening

Then she woke pretty much every hour from 11pm until 7am  I am absolutely shattered today and just can't go on like this....  I'm losing my mind and don't know where to begin with unraveling the mess!

This morning I put her down after 2hrs 30mins (she was screeching at me and fell asleep very quickly, making me think she was already OT?) Then she woke after 25mins, cried out briefly, but was all smiles when I went in to replace dummy  I left her to it and she chatted to her bunny for 20mins, then started crying again so I went back and replaced dummy. I'm now sat on our bed right next to her basket, typing this, and she's put herself back to sleep?!? Very, very restless though, so not sure how long it will last....

I'm so tired and confused! She seems mega hungry right now so that could be part of it maybe? She ate porridge+fruit purée this morning, plus a 9oz+ bottle!!    We offer 4x8oz bottles in a day and she usually drains the first two, often with an extra 1 or 2oz on top. Then her next ones are a bit less, but still around 6-8oz. She's also having breakfast and lunch, but haven't started doing a third meal yet.

I'm also struggling with when to fit her feeds and meals in, especially around her erratic sleep. A typical day looks something like this:

W/u: 7am
E: solids 7.30
E: bottle 8am
E: bottle and solids 11.30
E: bottle 3
E: bottle 6/6.30

Having suffered from reflux and preferred small feeds little and often, she's now more able to take larger feeds in one go, which has helped stop the problem of her being hungry and sleepy at the same time! But we are struggling with the night bottle as she is getting OT and really wanting to sleep before she has really had a chance to eat it..... But is then still hungry and waking for a top up after first going to sleep sometimes. In fact, I wonder if she is just borderline hungry all night?? But replacing the dummy for her to suck on is sending her back off for a little while? If she's really hungry at night she will spit out or scream through the dummy though, hence why we don't normally offer food unless she does this.

Sorry, turned into an essay again.... I'm just so muddled and hoping someone can help us unrave where we're going wrong!

[MrsTigs]

She ended up doing an extra 1hr 15mins after resettling this morning  Pretty happy over lunchtime/early afternoon, albeit with her usual screeching around 2hrs A..... Ended up going down after 3hrs A, but only slept for 25mins  So should I have put her down sooner, even though she took a good morning nap?

She smiled at me when I tried to resettle, but soon started fussing and wouldn't go back off like this morning. Figured she was hungry so got her up for 3pm bottle, but she's barely touched it. Have just put her down again after only 1hr A as getting inconsolable 

So today has gone:

W/u: 7am
E: 7.30-8am breakfast followed by 9oz bottle
A: 2hrs 30mins
S: 9.30 - 11.30 (woke at 25mins for 20mins, but resettled for 1hr 15mins extra)
E: 11.30 bottle but not v.interested
E: 12 veggie purée/finger food followed by rest of bottle (took 6oz in the end)
A: 3hrs
S: 2.30 - 2.55 (25mins - initially happy, but then fussy, wouldn't resettle)
E: 3pm not v.interested, has taken 4oz)
A: 1hr
S: Currently asleep since 3.55 (15mins and counting)

This is, of course, on the back of a night where she woke crying practically ever hour    She seems stuck in some horrible OT loop, but I just don't know how to help her get out..... I'm sure the dummy is a factor and am just about ready to ditch it and deal with the consequences! But I'm scared that naps will be even worse without it.....  Also we need to transition her to the cot, so don't want to do that and cold turkey on dummy at the same time, poor little thing!

Separation anxiety is also a factor I think, plus it dawned on me today that being in hospital might have been traumatic for her, even though I was there the whole time and she actually seemed quite calm! Lots of different faces and nasty procedures.... so that might have prompted the SA to set in? But then how do we go about helping her through it??

Sorry to bombard the board with so many posts    I'm just at my wits end and can feel my mental and physical health beginning to suffer from lack of sleep and anxiety over how to fix things  My 3yr old is suffering the brunt of my exhaustion and bad moods and I can feel my relationship with him unraveling a bit. My marriage is taking a hit too as my husband and I never have any time for each other - we are rock solid and will get through this together, but it's certainly not great to be sleeping apart and just limping from one bad night to another! The person "on duty" is going to bed straight after dinner, partly to try and get as much sleep as possible, but also because little miss tends to be unsettled in the evening too. So we literally never see each other!

Help!!

[Lindsay27]

Hi hun!  Sorry I haven't had a chance to go through your posts properly, just wanted to say I've seen this and will respond later tonight when the kiddies are in bed

[Lindsay27]

Okay, sorry!  Things have been a little nuts here too, a sick DS and DD is popping teeth out like crazy!

First things first, huge hugs hun...this all sounds utterly exhausting and I can completely get how you'd be at the end of your tether!  A few things that pop to mind initially:
1) Do you think there is any discomfort at play with regard to the NW - teeth, reflux, tummy trouble since starting solids? I only ask because crying in the sleep and that frequently tends to be pain related with my DD, so just something to consider
2) It is possible that the paci is a problem if she will settle with it but continually needs you to replug it.  I wouldn't jump to wean it immediately, let's see if we can work this out first, but something to keep in mind
3) How has the introduction of solids been going?  How much are you offering at each meal?  It does seem like she's a good eater so it's entirely possible she could be hungry in the night, my general rule of thumb is if she can go 4hrs between feeds during the day she can do so at night, but if she isn't settling easily or continues to wake hourly and you haven't offered a feed, I would go right ahead and offer one

With all this said, I do think she's in a bit of a UT/OT loop situation.  Her A times are still on the low side for her age, which is probably a result of the bad nights, but you can't fix one without fixing the other ya know?  So I think what you need to do is try to push her first A as much as possible, and try to get as close to 3hrs as you can.  An OT nap tends to be easier to resettle than a UT one, so if she wakes after 30mins just try to resettle if you can and hopefully get a good long nap.  I would say 3hrs of daytime sleep is optimal.  She's probably going to be OT, but it sounds like she's OT already, so you might as well try for a big A push, and hold for a few days and fingers crossed, we will see what happens and hopefully this will create 2 good naps and more settled nights.

[MrsTigs]

No worries Lindsay, thanks for your reply! Sorry to hear you're little ones are sick/teething 

To answer your questions:

1) Do you think there is any discomfort at play with regard to the NW - teeth, reflux, tummy trouble since starting solids? I only ask because crying in the sleep and that frequently tends to be pain related with my DD, so just something to consider

Tummy pain is a definite possibility. She's always been a windy/refluxy baby and has definitely been very gassy and a little constipated since starting solids. She's gone from 1-2 poops per day to going every other day and her poops have been quite green. In fact, her digestion has been a bit out of whack since her stay in hospital and subsequent antibiotics. Just today though I noticed that she seems to be going more frequently and her poops are a more normal colour and consistency.

Teething is also very likely - I'm sure I can see her middle bottom teeth under the gum, although not starting to cut through yet at all. She's shoving anything and everything in her mouth right now and is pretty dribbly, although that could be from her new obsession with blowing raspberries  We haven't given teething meds at bedtime/ in the night for a while as they didn't seem to be making a different and we didn't want to dose her up to much/ too regularly. But I did give her some teething gel tonight so we'll see if that helps at all

2) It is possible that the paci is a problem if she will settle with it but continually needs you to replug it.  I wouldn't jump to wean it immediately, let's see if we can work this out first, but something to keep in mind

Yeah, I think losing the dummy is definitely a factor, but I'm not sure if it's also related to something else (e.g a sore mouth, general restlessness etc). We would definitely like to explore other possible causes before we think about weaning.... I would like to move towards her settling herself at bedtime/in the night, but we would quite like to move her into her cot, rule out teeth etc first if we can.

3) How has the introduction of solids been going?  How much are you offering at each meal?  It does seem like she's a good eater so it's entirely possible she could be hungry in the night, my general rule of thumb is if she can go 4hrs between feeds during the day she can do so at night, but if she isn't settling easily or continues to wake hourly and you haven't offered a feed, I would go right ahead and offer one

Solids are going ok..... she is very, very excited about eating food!!  Reflux issues aside, she's always been quite a hungry baby and was grabbing ham sandwiches out of my hand at under 5 months!  We were going to start weaning a little before 6 months, as she appeared so keen, but then she got bronchiolitis and we obviously held off whilst she was recovering from that and getting back to normal feeds after being on an NG tube and reduced milk rations in hospital. We started solids just over two weeks ago and she's currently having the following:

Breakfast - 1 tablespoon baby rice (dry) made up with morning formula and mixed with 1-2 teaspoons of fruit puree. Also a few toast crusts to play with!
Lunch - 2 ice cubes of carrot or sweet potato puree (2oz?) plus finger food (toast, banana, cucumber, breadsticks etc)
Dinner - Puree as at lunch, plus 1-2 teaspoons fruit puree

We started quite slowly with solids, just doing breakfast plus a few bits of finger food for the first week, then moving onto lunch. I didn't want to overload her, especially as she seemed a bit windy/constipated, but she is clearly enjoying the food and eager to eat so we're starting to ramp it up a bit now. She had a whole 100g pouch of veg puree for dinner plus 1-2 teaspoons of fruit and probably would have eaten more if I'd been more prepared (no idea what she should ideally be having at her age!). For the last couple of nights, we've also been offering her milk feeds if she wakes and doesn't settle after one dummy resettle, but this hasn't exactly produced better nights yet!

With all this said, I do think she's in a bit of a UT/OT loop situation.  Her A times are still on the low side for her age, which is probably a result of the bad nights, but you can't fix one without fixing the other ya know?

Yep, we are definitely caught in a loop somehow! She was taking a decent (or at least better) morning nap at 2hrs 30, but lately I've been struggling to push her that far as she's been getting really cranky! Having said that though, she seemed randomly much happier this morning and was actually still fine at 3hrs.... So I put her down then, not wanting to go too far, but she only slept for 30mins and woke up completely happy, chatting to her bunny in her cot  The day unravelled after that though as we had to do a car trip at 2hrs A and she fell asleep 10mins into our 15min journey and then slept for 30mins on Nanny's drive  And then had a 15min micro nap on Nanny's lap at 3pm whilst brother and I were at the doctors and another micro nap at 4pm in the car on the way home

W/u: 6.30am
A: 3hrs
S: 9.30 - 10 (30mins)
A: 2hrs 10mins
S: 12.10 - 12.40 (30mins)
A: 2hrs 15mins
S: 2.55 - 3.10 (Nanny tried to resettle with dummy but no joy)
A: 1hr 20mins (had to go home in the car)
S: 4.30 - 4.45
A: 2hrs 30mins
S: 7.15 - 7.45 (fell asleep on the bottle as pretty tired, but woke at 7.15 for the other half)
S: 7.50 to now (2 hours so far without me having to resettle)

So a bit of a write off really today!  I'll definitely try to hold her A times at 3hrs though and see if that produces better naps (or OT ones that I can resettle). Do you think I should shoot for 2hr 30 A after a 20/30min nap or just hold it at 3hrs?? That's where I really struggle......  A shorter A time after a rubbish nap doesn't seem to make much difference, but then I worry about her getting completely OT as the day goes on! Having said that though, her brother always did huge A times for his age quite happily..... so perhaps I just breed children who don't need that much sleep?  (He did always sleep 11+hrs at night from 12 weeks though, pretty much). Don't know where they get it from though as my husband and I love our sleep and need 8+ to function! 

Thanks for all your input and suggestions  It's really helpful to have someone else take a look and help decode - especially as I couldn't tell you my own name right now! Hubby and I were talking last night - in the 5 minutes we have to eat dinner and then get to bed in our separate rooms!  - and we agreed to get Christmas out of the way and then really make a plan to tackle Missy's sleep issues more systematically. Hopefully 2017 will be the Year of Sleep and she will go back to her lovely newborn pattern of STTN and taking monster naps! (Although to be honest, I'd take good nights and catnaps days like her brother used to do right now!)

Thanks again,
Tigs xx

[creations]

Hi there MrsTigs
Just stopping by in place of Lyndsay as she's got "life" getting in the way right now.  I'm sure she'll stop by just as soon as she can.

Sorry to hear you  are so tired.  Baby's are exhausting hey?

I've had a read through your recent post. I would say to go for the 3hr A times regardless of how long she naps, so even after a short nap go for the 3hrs.  You can (if you have the strength!) also try to resettle after a short nap for 45 mins which will help to tell her it is still sleep time, although I know this is not always convenient or possible when so tired.  Just so you know, Tracy described in her book how she attempted to resettle until almost the end of nap time (bringing E a touch earlier if needed as baby will use more calories up if crying and fussing) and then followed this with a full or almost full A time. In effect it is 45 min awake after short nap PLUS the 3hrs, you can see this adds up to a really long A of closer to 3hr 45 mins. Not all BWers do this of course, some of us just get LO up after the short nap and get on with the day, some count the A time from when LO wakes rather than from when the end of the nap should have been. It does depend how strict you want to be or how tired you are.

A note on the solids.  Sounds like she loves it and it is going well. You mentioned poo changes due to antibiotics (I saw that also with my DS so I would say likely normal side effect of the meds) and also some reduction in frequency of poo going from 1-2 per day to once every two days. This frequency can be quite normal for some LOs but it can also be an effect of the solids.  I notice you are giving carrot or sweet pot puree and this might be every day and twice per day. I would suggest introducing some ready to eat prunes as finger food (or pureed and spoon fed if you prefer) to counter the effects of the carrot.  I would also suggest to vary the vegetable you are offering a bit more frequently so it is not so much carrot/sweet pot.  Carrot can be a constipating food and had I given it to my DS every day without something laxative to balance it out he would have had problems.  As it was I could judge his poo consistency on a daily basis and either avoid carrots for a couple of days or add carrots if needed, same with prunes. This way I was able to keep him pooing easily and regularly in a natural way.
Baby rice doesn't really offer anything in the way of nutrition so if you are finding she is hungry over night you might switch that rice to something else, calories don't necessarily need to be taken in the evening to keep LO sleeping through without hunger, calories taken in the morning coutn just as much, LOs often eat better in the morning hours too. It's also fine to introduce protein now, beans, meat, fish, eggs and these can really help to increase the day time calorie intake.  It is of course also normal for there to be a night feed at this age and for another month or so, so there is no panic to increase solids, I'm just making a few suggestions you might consider.

Good luck with the coming days.

[MrsTigs]

Hi Creations and thanks for your reply 

So firstly, we have a bottom tooth finally poking through!  So that is definitely contributing to her wakings I think. We have given teething meds for the last couple of nights to help her settle.

Secondly, the last couple of nights have been a bit better (in the relative sense!) On Thursday she took terrible naps (under 2hrs total across 5 catnaps) but actually slept from 8pm-1am. I fed her at 1am (4oz) and 4am (4oz) and then she woke for the day at 6.30. She was very unsettled between 1 and 4 so in hindsight I should probably have fed her more at 1am, or on her next waking. I was so delirious with tiredness by then that I kept offering dummy which produced hour long 'naps' but perhaps left her still feeling peckish? She wasn't crying out in obvious pain from teething, although I guess sucking is soothing so losing the dummy might be a factor in itself.

Similar story yesterday and last night: 4 super short catnaps totalling 1.5hrs only, then slept from 7.15-11.15. I settled with dummy, but again, probably should have gone straight to a feed! She slept of sorts from then until 1am, when she took 4oz and then slept from 1.30-5.30. Dummy resettle got us through until 6.30 wake up.

On both days, we've gone for a first A time of 3hrs, which has produced super short naps of 20/30mins. Is this just OT as we push up from 2hrs30/45? She wakes up happy and gets excited to see me, hence not being able to resettle!  She's appeared a lot more awake and happy during those 3hrs than previously, possibly due to getting a bit more night sleep and, hopefully, due to teething pain beginning to ease. I put her down at 3hrs again today and she also woke at 20mins happy and chatty..... Replaced dummy and left the room and it so far looks like she's gone back off (25mins and counting) - usually I can only extend with dummy/heavy hand if she wakes crying, but fingers crossed! So I think we'll hold her A time at 3hrs going forward and keep our fingers crossed! She was doing 2hrs quite easily at 9wks so maybe we haven't pushed her hard enough? She's difficult to read at the moment with teething, trying to crawl, separation anxiety, tummy pain etc!!

Thirdly, thanks for all the weaning tips! We're only on week three so haven't really got organised with a variety of foods, hence lots of baby rice and carrot! But she's been having some mixed veg pouches while I get more organised on the cooking front and I've also given her prune purée for the last couple of days. Her digestion is definitely settling down so hopefully that will also aid sleep  While she naps I'm going to check my family food recipe books and write out a menu/shopping list. She is definitely ready for more variety and quantity I think, although we're also completely happy to do night feeds as required - just not hourly wake up calls if we can avoid them!! *yawn*

Thanks again for your help,
Tigs xx

[creations]

Hi there
Short naps of 20 or 30 mins are often associated with OT however I have seen some UT LOs doing this too. I would stick at the 3hrs for now and if it continues possibly increase another 10 mins or so to see how that effects things.
If it was me I'd probably do a night feed at the first waking and see if she can get through to morning after that.
Teething can be really hard for some LOs and it can be tricky to work out changing routines around the teething disruption so at times it's a bit of guess work and just doing your best.