Can't back EASY back on track at 4 1/2 months

[Luciloo]

I am really struggling with trying to make EASY work again, but every time I think I'm getting somewhere, I seem to be back to square one.  The 3-hour routine was working really well for us, she was sleeping consistently sleeping through the night (11 hours+), having decent feeds and daytime naps.  Then, perhaps coincidentally, she had a sicky virus and on recovery from that, she hit the 4-month mark and it's all been downhill since then! I had a brief reprieve of 3 or 4 days when I moved her onto a 4-hour routine and she instantly took to it, I didn't even do it gradually.  She was back to sleeping through the night, and feeding well, napping well in the day etc.  But then we had a day where we had to go out and about a lot (I also have a 4-year old, who needs entertaining!), and LO was napping in the car, and it seems that I can't get things back on track since then. And that was a couple of weeks ago now.
So she is now 4 1/2 months. The main problem now in the day is that her first nap is only 40 minutes.  There is no point me trying to get her to sleep again as when she wakes, she is properly awake, and shouting!  Then it is too soon to feed her - often only being 2 3/4 hours since the last feed, so I have tried to do a bit of A first, to push back the E, but this has a knock-on effect thoughout the day then, with feeds ending up being too close together, and she's not really feeding for long sometimes, and very distracted. (She's EBF, and refuses all attempts at a bottle of EBM!). Then her lunchtime sleep is about 1 1/2 hours, and then an afternoon of 40 minutes again.  It seems to have settled into a bit of a pattern in these daytime naps.  I could cope with that if she would sleep at night again.
I have read about extending the A times, which I thought I would try by 15 mins this morning, but I am watching for her sleepy cues, and when I put her down for a nap she is ready and generally goes down without fuss and I don't have to shh/pat at all.  At night I have been dream feeding her when I go to bed, about 10.30-11.  How important is the timing of this?  Should it be strictly 4-hours after the last feed, or is it ok to just do it when you go to bed?  That dream feed has seen her through generally to about 4.30-5, when she wakes, and shouts!! I have tried to soothe her to sleep then, but I have given up and ended up feeding her and then she goes back to sleep.  She is just so wide awake, the only thing that will calm her to sleep is a feed. After that, she will go to sleep till 8.30am sometimes, so maybe that is what is messing up that first nap of the day and making it so short?!
I didn't do any kind of routine with my first - she found her own pattern, slept through the night from 6 weeks and is still a great sleeper now at 4 years, so it's all a shock to the system! I used to nurse her to sleep every time, day and night (against all advice, I know!), but u worked for her.
And last night, LO woke up 3.30am and fed for 30 mins before going straight back to sleep.  And that's after an 11pm dream feed! I just don't know where I am, it's impossible to plan, and I find this stressful when wanting to try and keep to some kind of routine for LO, but also keep my 4-year old happy on the days she's home.
And just how do you manage the napping in the car?!  LO falls asleep in the car so quickly, even if it's a good hour til her nap is due!!
I keep reading about this "4 month sleep regression", could it be that?  and if so, are you supposed to just ride it out and hope it gets better?  At the moment I am the definition of madness - doing the same thing repeatedly and hoping for a different outcome!
Any thoughts would be most welcome, I'm despairing what to do next.

[creations]

Hello and welcome to the forums

Yes there certainly is a "4 month regression" and it sounds like you are right in it - it tends to pass at 6 months so even though things might seem impossible right now try to hang on to that thought, that this is not going to last for ever.  The 4 month regression came at 3.5 months for my DS and passed at 5.5 months (he was always a bit ahead on his age/stages).

Although your LO is showing sleepy signs, the 40 min nap is usually a sign of UT (under tired) so you might be able to stretch that first A time to help her sleep better (sleepy cues can be confusing at this age, they can begin to show tired signs due to boredom or just needing a change of scene/toy).  Or you might wake her in the morning if you want to set up a routine with a regular WU time.  Or you might decide that a couple of CNs and 1 long nap suits her, and perhaps suits you and your 4yo routine?
There are a number of options based on what you want/need and what your LO wants/needs.  if she is relatively well rested on the routine you have atm you might decide to accept it for the sake of it being easier to get out and about with the 4yo - if you have a baby who needs every nap to be long and at home in the cot with a relatively short A time because they are still very young, it is much harder to get out and about so I would say first of all to ask yourself if this unconventional EASY routine might actually be better for you all as a family right now?
I had an unconventional EASY routine for my DS due to commitments (he was a bit older than your LO is now) so that rather than 2 long naps we had 1 long nap (at home in the cot) and 2 CNs, the CNs were both in the car and timed one for on our way out to an activity and the other on the way home from an activity.  Sometimes you have to make compromises all round.

The extra night feed could just be a growth spurt. Even if you didn't experience these with your older child it is very normal for a BF baby to have 2 night feeds at this age, so the DF plus 1 (or even 2) NFs is not at all out of the ordinary.  I wouldn't even bother to try to settle her without the second feed if she goes down so well after the feed, I'd just do it as quickly as possible so that everyone can get back to bed.  The additional NF might also be her making up for lost calories during her illness, it can take a while for LOs to catch up on what they lost/missed when ill but they seem very good at knowing what they need to make up for it.
The DF does not need to be exactly 4hrs from the last feed, it is just a method whereby you feed before you go to bed so that you can try to get that longer stretch of sleep from LO whilst you also sleep.

Would you like to post your current EASY times just as they are happening right now and we can have a look to see if there is anything we can suggest to help you with the routine?  If you post in this format we find it easier to read, eg:
WU 8.30
E 8.30
A 1hr 30
S 10 - 10.40 (40 min) in cot will not resettle
A
E 11.30
A 1hr 20
S 12 - 1.30 (1.5hr) at home in cot
and so on through the day and including any DF, NF, NWs and through to next WU. Also include any pertinent notes such as her mood.

At the moment I am the definition of madness - doing the same thing repeatedly and hoping for a different outcome!

I think most of us have been there at some point - or several points Hang in there, you are not alone.

[Luciloo]

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.  I feel reassured by what you have said.  I am happy for her to have a long nap and and 2 shorter naps, if I could just get a regular pattern!  Perhaps I should be waking her up at a regular time, like you say.  She had an extra 15 minutes A time this morning and then had a 2 1/4 hour sleep! But she was also awake an hour earlier today, so maybe that made her sleep longer?!  I seem to be constantly second guessing!

Yesterday and the day before were pretty similar, so here's what happened:
NF 4.55 (25 mins)
WU 8.35
E 8.45 (8mins)
A 1hr 40
S 10.40 - 11.30 (50 min) in cot will not resettle
A 1 hr
E 12.30 (13 mins)
A 1hr 20
S 13.45 - 15.20 (1hr35) at home in cot
A 40 mins
E 16.00 (8 mins)
A 1 hr 10
S 17.20-18.05 (45 mins) at home in cot
A 35 mins
E 18.40 (20 mins)
A (bath)
S 19.55
DF 22.50 (50 mins)
NF 5.00 (14 mins)
WU 8.15

But then today the NF was at 3.30am, for 30 mins, then a 7.15 wake up, and a 2 hour sleep at 9.30!  Now got to go out in the car, which should be when her next nap is due around 13.45.

It's good to hear the night feeds are normal.  I guess because she had been sleeping through, it felt like something had gone wrong.
If this is mostly due to the 4-month sleep regression, and there is an end in sight, I'm happy to hang in there, but I'm worried I'm getting her into bad habits!  Thank you so much or your help.

[creations]

if I could just get a regular pattern!  Perhaps I should be waking her up at a regular time,

Some people do find this helpful as they then know the time of the first nap and can plan some of the day around this, baby or toddler groups etc.  If you do decide to make WU a set time I would suggest:
- not to make it too late, it needs to be roughly when she wakes anyway, letting her habitual/natural WU time be your guide, no point setting it at 8.30am if she sometimes wakes at 7.15 or you are setting yourself up for a difficult time.  Maybe try 8am and see where it gets you over a number of days
and
- to ensure there is at least one nap where she can catch up if needed.  It is not advisable to have LO woken or disturbed at every sleep.

From the times you've given it looks like she slept much better after a 2hr 15 min A time. This is a bit longer than the guidance times for age but that's okay if it gives a good restful nap.  The shorter first nap above came at 2hrs 5 mins whilst the second nap came at 2hrs 15.  The long 2hr+ nap she took on the day she woke earlier also came with a 2hr 15min A time.  Based on those I think it's a good starting point.
If you are able to stay at home for that first nap and for it to be a good long one (most days) this is super helpful in getting through the day, and really great for during the 4 months regression if you can get it!  Once you know she's had that good nap it doesn't feel so bad to have CNs the rest of the day.

If you have to go out when nap two is due you could perhaps set off in time for the nap to start in the car (go a bit earlier if needed) and let her have a 40 min sleep cycle - it might involve taking something to keep 4yo occupied for a little time in the car whilst LO finishes her CN.
Or
You might be able to switch around your day so that you leave the house almost directly when she wakes from nap 1.  She is less likely to nod off in the car and you can reach your destination before nap is due albeit you arrive very early and plan some additional activity to take up some time.  You could perhaps put her to nap in a pushchair when it's due and plan for either a CN or longer nap depending what your commitments and plans are for the day.

I would probably try to keep each day relatively the same.

Hope this helps.  If you can get one long nap during the 4 month regression then i am impressed   I do not have particularly fond memories of this phase, 4 or 5 40min naps was all I got from my DS and it exhausted me.  I was so glad when it passed

Let us know how you get on - we're here if you have more questions.

[Luciloo]

Hello and thank you for your further advice.  I did try a wake up time of 8am, and I then had to put her to bed after only 1 1/2 hours as she was beyond tired!!  Since then she has been waking ahead of this time anyway, so I will carry on observing and work out a suitable regular WU time.  I do think, as you say, that this will help with predictability for the day!  I have been getting a long nap maybe 4 out 5 days, but it has been a few at lunchtime, and then afternoons for the past couple of days.  We'll see if a more definite pattern emerges I guess!  Generally I feel more relaxed about just aiming for that one good sleep a day, since reading your advice, so thank you.
The latest challenge seems to be that she doesn't always want to go back to sleep after the 4/5am feed!  A few days ago she woke just before 4, I fed her, but it was 6.45 before she would settle to sleep again, after being up for nearly 3 hours!! The other morning she woke at 5am, had a short feed, but took til 6am to drop off again, before then waking again at 6.45!  There doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason for why she goes back to sleep easily one morning, and not the next, but I'll keep monitoring the timings etc and see if I can see a pattern!
I will persist!  She's 5 months old in another week, so I may be approaching the half way mark of this phase?! (Not that I want to wish away the time!).  Thanks again.

[creations]

There's a chance that increasing that first A time to 2hr 15 might help with that reluctance to go back to sleep after the 4am ish NF.  It wouldn't show up in just one or two days I don't think but over a number of days you might see something of a difference.

She's 5 months old in another week, so I may be approaching the half way mark of this phase?! (Not that I want to wish away the time!). 

Ha ha! Yes!  Oh believe me this was not a phase I enjoyed, I am quite jealous you are getting a longer nap in there

[Luciloo]

Ok, thank you. I will definitely try increasing the first A time to 2 hr 15.  I definitely do not like this new trend.  This morning she woke at 4.40, had a 40 min feed, a 20 min sleep, and then would not go down again until 8am.  AGGGGHHHHH! Rather weary today!

[creations]

Hang in there.