Any ideas around nursery run?

[Murdock]

Hi,

I’m in a bit of a mess and really can’t think straight! So looking for any tips / ideas…

My LO is 1 next week and still rubbish at night. Normally awake every 3 hrs. Occasionally manages 4 hrs but sometimes awake every 2 hrs.

I’m working on independent sleep. I still BF him to sleep for his main nap but at bed he is now mostly falling asleep in his cot although I am still in the room (occasionally have a hand on his back on over-tired days). I’ve not tackled the nap yet because I’ve got the older one running around the house and I don’t want to leave him too long on his own.

Typical times at the moment are:

 - Between 4 / 4.30 A time before the main nap
- Then a 1h 30 min nap with no resettling. (sometimes 1.20 / 1.40).

 - Then a 3hr 45 / 4 hrs awake time before his cat nap. (won’t go earlier)
 - Cat nap is APOP - sling or car. And he generally has 30 min - sometimes 45 mins.

Then it tends to be 2.45hrs to bed if 30 min nap
Or 3.15hrs if 45 min nap.

So roughly:

6.30 - wu
10.45 - 12.15 nap
4.- 4.30 nap
7.30 bed

So daytime is ok but not sure if it making nights worse.

I wonder about trying short am nap / then decent early afternoon nap in case the late catnap is mucking up the night. But I don’t really know what to aim for as I’ve got nursery runs for the older lad every day. And also cause of that I can't push the morning A time up to 5 hrs.

I have to leave the house at 12.15 and generally get back at 12.45. (travel in car and have to take LO in with me).
Then to collect I have to leave the house at 2.45 and get back around 3.15.

Any ideas would be brilliant as I really do want to get a bit of night-time progress!

Thanks in advance.

[creations]

Hi there
If your LO is taking those naps reasonably well (sounds like he is) then I'd probably focus more on sleep training the nights rather than moving the naps.  It's your choice of course.
What is happening in the night?  At 1yo I wouldn't expect a Lo to be waking with hunger so it could just be a case of resettling and resettling to reduce the NWs and drop BFs in the night.  You might need to check the day time intake of solids and milk to ensure enough is offered to reduce the need for night feeds.
Your day time routine is not so uncommon as to be obviously causing the frequent night waking though - more a sleep trianing issue I think.

As time goes on you might find it 2 naps of an hour each fits your day better. We generally say that a nap needs to be 1.5/2hrs to be fully restorative but there are lots of people who find two 1hr naps fine.  Could help you fit around the school run etc.  And then you could gradually reduce the morning one down to a CN and increase the afternoon one as you work towards a one nap routine.

What do you think?

[Murdock]

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

Ok - I'll start focusing on the sleep training. Do you think it's worth trying to get to 4 hrs first between feeds? And re-settle everything else? Or just go for it.

He generally does eat three times during the night at the moment - oops  He's not a great eater during the day - far too distracted with the world to bother. (or maybe too full up from the night time nonsense!!) So I'll work on more food during the day as well.

The 2 x hr naps could well work time wise. Although, I had to wake him from the morning nap today at about 1hr 15mins and he's been a grump-ster this afternoon! So if that became the normal mood - I guess I might be better off waking him a bit earlier in the morning to keep a decent nap before pre-school. Hmmm - something to think about.

Thanks again for your help. I'll get my night time plan sorted and into action. 

[creations]

3 night feeds for an almost 1yo is really not needed. you will probably have a few sleepless nights to drop them but you can be safe in knowing that he just doesn't need it. Those calories need to be taken in the day.
I would start with cutting down to 2 NFs, be consistent, decide which you are going to resettle for and go for it, feed at the other 2.  After a few days cut the next one, and so on.
Be prepared to feed more during the day. At this age solids is the primary source of food, I know your LO is not quite 12 months yet but almost.  So, 3 good meals, 2 snack (solids) and 2 servings of milk (usually WU and BT but doesn't have to be).

Good luck

[Murdock]

Hi,

Just wondered if any thoughts on this... my aim this week is not feeding before 4hrs - I think we've done 3 days so far. (I'm not quite mentally up to cold turkey at the moment!).

Do shout though if I should post in the sleeping area instead.

So last night:
 - asleep at 7pm
 - awake at 9.30ish. Quick resettle in cot. Few cries 5 mins later but he sorted himself out.
 - awake at 11pm. I fed.
 - Awake at 2pm. Gave some teething gel. Attempted to settle in cot. He was trying. I didn't do much - just the occasional back stroke when getting a bit upset. Seemed to fall asleep about 2.50.
 - But awake again at 3pm. I did feed that time as it was then the 4 hrs.
 - Awake at 4.40am. Very quick pick up and put down and straight asleep again.
- Awake at 6.40am.

Do you think there's anything I should be doing differently - or just keep doing this for a few more days?
Although it does still look pretty awful for a 1 year old  I think there's been a tiny bit of progress....

Thanks for any thoughts!

[creations]

Hi there
I'm going to move your thread over to toddler sleep as he is now over 1yo (happy birthday little man!).

I can see what you are aiming for with the 4hrly night feeds but it looks to me like you are ending up awake a lot longer trying to resettle him and then in the end feeding.  Instead, how about feed right away (eg that 2am NW even though it was only 3hrs) but limit the amount you feed so that you do a gradual wean over a week?  I think you are still BF so a reduction to wean the NF would be to reduce the number of minutes, if he usually feeds for 5 only do 4 for instance or if you feed both sides only do one.
If you properly focus on this as a gradual wean you should be done with that second feed in 7 - 10 days and without any great upset of problem.  When you are only doing the briefest of feeds drop to zero milk and offer water in a sippy cup or whatever you use for water during the day.
This means instead of you both being awake for an hour at 2am you "should" be able to do a very quick feed and back down but reducing every night until there is no feed and LO does not wake, or if he does he is not hungry.  Over that week he will shift his calorie intake to the day time - this does not always show on day one or even on day two, it can take several days for your LO to decide to increase solids in the day to make up for the reduced milk at night - but do not worry he is not going to starve.

Once that feed has gone you can begin to gradual wean the 11pm feed.
I really think that in the space of 2 - 3 weeks you can be without any night feeds.
Milk or dairy solids at some point during the day is still needed of course.

[becj86]

Juat wondering if anything has changed recently - nursery, you going back to work, switched to cup/bottle during the day, etc.? Has he always fed this much in the night or is this an escalation? I know my DS increased his BFs at night when I went back to work.

Creations' plan there to reduce minutes feeding gradually is great - that's what worked for me.

It does seem that part of the problem may be that feed to sleep prop so when he wakes, instead of knowing how to get back to sleep, he's searching for the breast to get back to sleep. I wouldn't introduce one now but if he has a dummy/paci, that might help.

[Murdock]

Thanks both for your thoughts.

No - nothing has changed - sadly he's always fed every 3 hrs for at least the last 6months I guess. Totally my fault - it's been a bit of year with non-baby stuff and I've just not got myself sorted. And I absolutely agree - he doesn't know how to resettle during the night without help. (he's got a dummy and does re-plug)

And I've not really paid attention to his solid intake - so thanks for flagging that Creations. I've seen a good increase in food over the last few days and I do feel his night feeds are less eating and more comfort now.

The good news is - for the last 4 days he's only had 2 night feeds and the other wakes have resettled with some water or just in cot. Yaaay :-)

The bad news is another hr wake up last night. Asleep at 7.30pm. Awake at 10. Resettle a few times between 10 and 10.30 but then I fed at 10.30. Awake at 1.30. Quick feed - but took until 2.30 to sleep. Awake at 4.30am - but just quick bit of water and put down. Then awake at 6.30 and up.

I think I read somewhere that 1h wakes could be OT? The last 2 days I have had nap refusals and I think I just got him into bed too late last night.

Interestingly on Wed - he had 2 x 30 min cat naps (cause of refusing his mid-day nap) and then a really good night! No long wakings. I think I only went in 3 times and I even heard him resettling himself a few times! Last A time was only 2.30 hrs as the cat nap was so late.

So.... this is what I'm currently aiming for during the day:

WU - 6.30 ish
Nap 1 - 9.30am ish for 30 mins (he started refusing PM cat nap so I moved it to the morning)
Nap 2 - 1pm ish for up to 1.45 hrs (have to wake at 2.45 for pre-school pick up)
Asleep 7pm. (or maybe even 6.45. He rarely does more than 11hrs 30 over night so bit cautious going earlier than this!)
The two nights we had 1 hr night wakes he'd done a 4.30 A time to sleep- maybe just too long.

And then night feeds - reduce the mins of the first feed and try and get rid of that in the next week.

Do you guys mind if I post updates every few days? If I'm updating here - it might help me keep strong and pushing on with this!!

Thanks so much for all your input.

[creations]

Do you guys mind if I post updates every few days? If I'm updating here - it might help me keep strong and pushing on with this!!

Update away   I always find when I have an issue going on the process of typing it out helps me focus on it and also sometimes it helps me see things I might not have noticed too.  So - feel free

Those long NWs might be OT if you feel there was a long A time before BT, but they could also be a sign of your LO being ready to drop to one nap.  The nap refusals are also a possible indicator of sleep needs changing.  Unfortunately when you have lots of NFs or props rather than self soothing it can be a bit confusing to know if it's props or routine causing problems.
You can try for a while with the morning CN and longer afternoon nap... or if you wanted to revert back to longer first A time before the nap you might be able to drop to one nap, either now or soon(ish).  Might be something to have a think about.  After all he was already doing 4 to 4.5hrs A time I think so you could probably give it a go.

[Murdock]

Yep - I think you're right on the 1-nap day - that's actually what he did yesterday as the monkey refused his morning cat nap 


WU was 7am.
He was in the sling for 30 mins at 9.30ish (prob too early due to the morning lay in!) Eyes shut for a min here and there.
Then fell asleep on way home from pre-school at 12.45 - transferred and I woke at 2.45.
But I then mucked it up by not having him asleep until 7.20pm.

But I'll focus on props first rather that too much routine fiddling!!

Thanks again.

[creations]

Ah right I see.
That's a really good day on one nap!!  Although yes an earlier BT would be better.
Well, good luck, I mean you might not have any choice over this if he continues to refuse the CN.