Pu/pd got baby sleeping through the night but still struggling to

[Kamazingg]

Hi,
My son is 7 months today and we had been doing the pu/pd sleep training for 8 days now.
My son has been on a four hour schedule for 3 months now:
8am -        E
9-10.30am A
10.30-12 - S (only naps for 30 mins)
12pm -       E
1-2.30pm - A
2.30-4 pm -S (only naps for 30 mins)
4pm -         E
5-7pm.       A
7.30          Bath
8pm           E/story/bed

PU/PD has been going well for nightimes as Leo has gone from waking twice a night (12am +4am) to now sleeping through out the night till 6am. However for nights and daytime naps, it is still taking pu/pd for on average 20-25 minutes before he finally gets to sleep and the time doesn't appear to be reducing.
As the days go by, Leo seems to be getting more and more upset during pd, I pick him up and he settles instantly resting his head in my shoulder (won't settle in my arms). However as soon as I put him down he screams. I have tried settling with just my hand but this seems to upset him even more. I have read the BW book and am aware that between 6-8 months you should wait until baby reaches  out to you before you pick up, but Leo cries with his eyes close and making eye contact also makes thing worse.

Just needed some advice as my wrist and back are really hurting from all of the pu/pd 

[mummybunney]

I’d be interested in this as time doing it isn’t improving for my 5months old either

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

The first thing I notice in your EASY times is that his first A time is only 2hr 30 min. This is very short for a 7 month old.  At this age we would expect to see at least 3hrs (guidance time for 6 months) and perhaps 3hr 15 or even longer for some. Here is a link to guidance times but you will see some get longer at this age, it is judged by how well your Lo sleeps and what suits the individual:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
I would probably start tomorrow with a 3hr first A time and see how that goes for a few days.  Trying to put a baby to sleep when they are UT (under tired) is very hard work.

After that first nap though it is a bit difficult to see how long he is having awake.  The times you have posted for his S time 10.30 - 12.00 is what you are aiming for rather than what happens. It really helps us here if you can record the times your LO sleeps and wakes.  If he is only sleeping 30 mins what are you doing for the rest of that nap time?
The following nap time he may well be OT (over tired) by this point having had only a 30 min nap and followed by a 3hr 30 A time.  Whilst 3hr 30 would be suitable for a lot of 7 month olds it would be more suitable after a good nap rather than a short nap.

Is there any reflux at all?  Is he in discomfort/pain being laid on his back?
If not then you would need to persevere with adjusting how you settle him when you pick up.
the way I would imagine doing it would be to pick up to the shoulder (where he calms) and then slide him horizontally into arms. It would be helpful if he can become accustomed to calming in that laying down position to help you settle him in the cot.  it is not something that will happen just in one day and he is likely going to be frustrated about it, you may need to bring him back to the shoulder to calm him and return to horizontal again several times.
When he is more comfortable with that you are likely to get a better result putting down in the cot and only briefly picking up.
Whilst doing this you can use shush/pat or if he doesn't like this you can do shush/rub or a key phrase repeated to reassure.  key phrases are very handy during the sleep training process.

hope this helps

[Kamazingg]

Thank you so much for you response, Creations. I will use your suggestion of adjusting my settling technique and see how it goes!
Your suggestion to extend lo activity time totally makes sense as I've been using this same schedule since he was 3/4 months and didn't think to adapt it.
As you have correctly stated,10.30-12pm and 2.30-4pmis the nap time I'm always aiming for, rather than what it actually is. Leo used to nap for 2hours before the 4 month sleep regression, now will only for 30mins exactly. Leo tends to nap closer to the time he is due his next feed. Before his nap is usually spent trying to get him down to nap.
Something I'm a bit confused about, if he is playing for 3.30hours, is that still a 4 hour schedule? What would feeds and nap time be like and how long for?

[creations]

As LOs get older and need longer A times the EAS routine changes a bit. Obviously feeds need to be fitted around nap times and as they get older there are more E times too, with milk E and solids E and then later on solids snacks.  Eventually they drop from 2 naps to 1 too and so you can't feed only on waking or there wouldn't be enough feeds in the day.
When solids are introduced and due to nap timings the milk E can naturally extend to more like 5hrs, that is not a strict rule it is always dependent on the individual routine. It may be that only one E stretches to 5hrs and that others are shorter (and often LO eats at less than 3 or 4hrs before BT).  All times are guidance only but I'll give you an example:
WU 7
E 7 milk
E 8 solids breakfast
A 3hr 30
(if LO needs a top up E here before nap it's okay possibly E at 10am which is only 3hr since last milk feed but then sees LO through the nap)
S 10.30 - 12.00
E 12 milk if there was no top up prior to nap otherwise this is now 5hr since previous milk feed but LO has had breakfast between so it is not 5hrs since having something to eat
E 12 (or 1pm if milk was given at 12) solids lunch
A 3hr 30
E 3 milk (if milk was given at 10 and 12 this may need to be 2pm instead of 3pm)
S 3.30 - 5pm
E 5pm solids dinner (LO may not be on 3 solids meals at 7 months but this comes in at 8 months)
A 3hr
E the BT milk
BT 8pm

Like I say it is only guidance. if you need help to establish a suitable routine we can help but it is based on what suits your LO rather than us just giving you a fixed schedule to work from.  Some LOs take to solids really early on and because they eat a big portion and have a long nap they don't need milk for 5 hrs whilst others are not so into solids yet and might need a milk top up before nap time.  Some like very long A times before they sleep well, others like them short...so it is all a case of seeing what works best.
At 7 months you are looking for 2 good naps of 1.5hr or more, at 8 months or older one of the naps might need to be shorter because with longer A times and long naps BT ends up too late, one nap becomes a CN instead.
Eventually the CN is dropped leaving 1 nap per day.

[Kamazingg]

Thank you so much for this, very informative! I think I will trial your suggested routine and let you know how it goes. Ive was always been conflicted about feeding before nap time as I thought it was a sleep prop, but at the same time was aware the Leo slept for much longer with it. So I'm guessing as long as he doesn't fall asleep on the boob that is ok?!

[creations]

OK, before you jump in I'll need to say that the routine above is based on a 3hr 30 A time which your LO may or may not yet be ready for.
I'd suggest increasing from your current 2hr 30 A time to 2hr 45 for a few days then increase again to 3hrs for another few days.
From there, you may see naps becoming easier, less fussing easier to go down, and possibly longer naps too.  If not you can then increase to 3hr 15 for another few days.  Although you may end up on 3hr 30 in a week or two we wouldn't suggest such a big increase all in one go, better over a number of days so LO can get used to it.

Whilst you are doing this if you can jot down all your accurate times through day/night it could be useful to help work out the best routine for your LO.  You are welcome to post updates here.
You may also need to do a little W2S (wake to sleep) if your LO has not learned to transition between sleep cycles or is now habitually waking after 30 mins.  I can help with some guidance if you are not sure about this method.
Both PUPD and W2S or shush/pat will only "work" when on a suitable routine so try it all out and see what happens and we can take it from there.

[Kamazingg]

Thanks for response, Creations. Over the past few days I have steadily increased activity time and also tried a milk top-up, however lo is still waking after 30 mins. I'm thinking its habitual waking and want to try wake-to-sleep but I have a few questions to ask first.

1. Lo currently has a cold and a really bad cough, he was sleeping through the night initially, but now finds it difficult to settle once his cough has woken him up. I read somewhere that sleep training stops when they are ill, is this correct? What should I do here? Last night I nursed him to sleep at 12am and 4am. Am I undoing all of my hard work?

2. From around day 7 of sleep-training, lo would become really sleepy during his bedtime feed so I would put him straight down in the cot where he would need gentle patting and then sleep throughout the night. Is it ok that he goes down like this or should I wake him up then put him down in the cot?

3.I attend quite a few baby groups in the week, is it best to stop these for a week to focus on getting the naps right?

4. Could you offer some guidance around W2S

Many thanks

[creations]

. I read somewhere that sleep training stops when they are ill, is this correct?

It depends on what sort of training you are doing really. A really strict PUPD with age adaptations might not be suitable for a LO who is poorly, but a W2S is a very gentle tool and I can see no harm at all in trying it whether LO is ill or not. In fact it is something I would probably try if my LO was waking due to illness/pain to help him stay asleep or get back to sleep more quickly so that he could feel better after a good rest.

Last night I nursed him to sleep at 12am and 4am. Am I undoing all of my hard work?

At this age it is still well within the normal range to have a night feed or two and a slight increase in night feeds during illness is fine. Nursing can help with pain relief so it will help with the cough and cold.  There is no hurry to cut all night feeds anyway but after LO recovers you'll probably find the number of night feeds reduces back to what it was prior to the illness.

From around day 7 of sleep-training, lo would become really sleepy during his bedtime feed so I would put him straight down in the cot where he would need gentle patting and then sleep throughout the night. Is it ok that he goes down like this or should I wake him up then put him down in the cot?

If he's going down and staying asleep there is no problem with it. The only time you'd need to change anything is if he appears sleepy (due to feeding and the sleepy hormones in breast milk) but then NOT sleeping as this would indicate either the need for training or a change in the routine.
My suggestion with LOs who go down very sleepy or with in arms is to say something quite clearly they can hear in their sleep such as "I'm going to put you in your bed now so you can have a nice sleep. Call if you need me". This way they've been given information about where they are so if they wake up in the cot rather than in arms it is less of a surprise.  At perhaps at 7 months LO doesn't understand all the words but they understand they are being told something (some reassurance) and in any case this is practise for the future.

.I attend quite a few baby groups in the week, is it best to stop these for a week to focus on getting the naps right?

Baby groups are great for you both.  What I did was look at my LOs routine and work out which groups fitted best with it and stuck to those. We couldn't go to everything on offer but it was enough.  For me that meant naps at home in the morning, then groups in the afternoon,  with shorter naps either side of the group rather than a long nap.  When mine reach 1yo I switched to morning toddler groups and afternoon nap at home.
I don't think you need to stop all groups unless you see them causing a problem.  Our swimming class didn't work so well for us and in the end I decided to drop it as it took too many days to recover but not everyone has this problem.

4. Could you offer some guidance around W2S

My DS's BT now, I'll be back

[creations]

OK, here is a link to W2S info:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
I suggest the naps, option 1 for now.  Adapt the information based on your own circumstances, so as your LO is waking at the 30 min mark don't wait until 30 min to go into the room, instead make sure you are in there at around 20-25 min into the sleep time and either begin shush/patting or hover your hand right above LO ready for him to start waking and then begin shush/pat.  This usually helps LO transition into the next sleep cycle and reduces the amount of resettling time.
If LO fully wakes and is properly crying you might need to pick up and settle in arms.
Usually use the method for 3 days and then on day 4 observe to see what happens. If LO can then transition job doe, if not resettle as best you can and begin another 3 days of W2S the following day.

W2S needs the routine to be suitable so if you think LO might be UT you need that A time long enough to get a good result.

hope this helps.
let me know how you get on